ALPA Monument at KCVG

[Baronman]

Blame CVG....when you're bread and butter hub is in Northern Kentucky, you may have a problem.

 

[Flightdawg]

Apples and oranges my friend. Walmart employees have what sort of skill that can't be replaced tomorrow by someone who has NO training?

Sorry, it was my intent to compare the management philosophies of corporations against unions. Of course an airline pilot is a highly skilled expert who deserves to be well compensated for their duties and responsibilities.

I am not a huge ALPA cheerleader but I recognize there needs to be some sort of legal buffer between the company and the FAA. ALPA provides that.

Not a big ALPA fan either, but if they are the best game in town, then that's what I'd want.

 

[PCL_128]

Why should ALPA invest any money in that? If SkyWest pilots truly desire some sort contractual protection, they don't ALPA sticking their noses in there to get the job done. Yes I am aware of all the other costs involved. Most of the grassroots stuff can be done without National putting their fingers into the mix.

I doubt you'll see ALPA spending a dime on it unless we have reason to believe that the results will be a lot different this time.

 

[bvt1151]

The original post has a valid point, but you all seem to be missing it. The issue isn't that Concourse C is closed, the issue is that the Comair pilots are being decimated. Concourse C is just the symbol, or "monument."

Here is the last pilot group to go on strike for the profession, and ALPA has done absolutely nothing for them. Sure, Concourse C would have closed regardless, but the highest paid regional pilots would not have been dragged through the 1113 process, and now endless furloughs had ALPA actually acted like a union.

How can we expect other pilots to raise the bar when the only pilots who have were thrown under the bus? We have nobody to blame for the whipsaw but ourselves.

Concourse C is a monument to the Comair pilots. They're both being shut down, but for different reasons.

 

[crusader 22]

Well said BVT

 

[cmrflyer]

BVT is spot on. The comair guys and girls are the only ones who stood up to mgt, so many others went the other way and signed lowball contracts, using the 911 excuse. well guess what, 911 is done, what's the new excuse? It changes every week, pick the one thats most popular now.
mgt use the excuses to make people fall in line and sign bogus contracts. The sooner these flt school wonders realise that the better. Get real people, we are professionals, if mgt want to sell tickets for nothing thats their problem, our only goal is to be professionals and be rewarded as such.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I think of Q'Doba...

 

[Jetjockey]

Hey, tell me what thoughts go through your head when you taxi past that monument to ALPA success at KCVG depicted on the 10-9 as "Terminal C?" Remember how busy that used to be? Remember all those RJ's parked there and the constant movement of planes, passengers, bags, equipment, busses to and from the main terminal? Today, Terminal C is closed. No planes, no passengers, no bags, no equipment. The busses are still there. Just parked out front of the terminal. The bus drivers and all the employees who worked in the terminal aren't there, though. Their jobs are gone, too.

So what lessons do you take away from Comair ALPA's 89 day strike and the aftermath over the last nine years or so? Pretty powerful and protective stuff, those ALPA regional unions, wouldn't you agree? They protect jobs, benefits, everything. And the vocal minority over at SkyWest who are whining, bitching and moaning about losses they've had while their pilot group has pretty much trippled in size over the same period of time want to start another union drive. Yep, that'll solve everthing. Let's get ALPA onboard over there. Great idea. Just taxi past Terminal C at KCVG and see the glory.

Nevermind. I'm probably just being narrow minded or exposing my ignorance.

Proof union busting managers use this board as propaganda. Read Confessions of Union buster by Marty Levitt. You would not believe the lengths and costs companies will go to prevent, and bust employees from becoming organized.

 

[WayBack]

Proof union busting managers.

I love that term.
Unions dont need managers to bust them. They bust themselves with their self serving greed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I love that term.
Unions dont need managers to bust them. They bust themselves with their self serving greed.

Why not take responsbility and change that......?

 

[bvt1151]

Proof union busting managers use this board as propaganda. Read Confessions of Union buster by Marty Levitt. You would not believe the lengths and costs companies will go to prevent, and bust employees from becoming organized.

And therein lies the ultimate irony of union life. If you ever question ALPA, it's immediately considered proof that you're a "union busting manager." It's the Catch 22 that will prevent ALPA from ever being effective if it's own members can't challenge it to make it better.

But nothing is being done, and the association is slowly being split into oblivion. ALPA rhetoric is to blame everybody else but ourselves (bankruptcies, union busting managers, congress). Why has Skywest not voted in a union yet? Because the only incentive ALPA has provided is shame if they don't.

ALPA has proven that they are entirely unwilling to protect their prized bar-raisers, as we've seen with Comair. Worse than this, even as ALPA stands by and watches the last union success story disappear, they don't even allow the Comair pilots martyrdom status. They just blame them for the RJDC and a misguided seniority resignation policy circa 2003. Swallow your pride ALPA and show you've got the balls to stand up for those who had the balls to fight for you!

These days, I struggle to find the difference between ALPA and a simple conspiracy theory. Both say someone else is out to get them, and if you challenge the very ideas, you're considered part of the conspiracy. The only difference is, ALPA is supposed to protect it's members, not just the mystic of it's past.

Make yourself relevant, ALPA!

 

[AWACoff]

The original post has a valid point, but you all seem to be missing it. The issue isn't that Concourse C is closed, the issue is that the Comair pilots are being decimated. Concourse C is just the symbol, or "monument."

Here is the last pilot group to go on strike for the profession, and ALPA has done absolutely nothing for them. Sure, Concourse C would have closed regardless, but the highest paid regional pilots would not have been dragged through the 1113 process, and now endless furloughs had ALPA actually acted like a union.

How can we expect other pilots to raise the bar when the only pilots who have were thrown under the bus? We have nobody to blame for the whipsaw but ourselves.

Concourse C is a monument to the Comair pilots. They're both being shut down, but for different reasons.

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

 

[Flightdawg]

Why not take responsbility and change that......?

Because it is easier to sit back and bitch about it.

 

[bvt1151]

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

And how does minimalizing the struggles of Comair help the situation at ALPA? Get over your jealousy of who does or doesn't get credit for what and fix your union.

 

[Flightdawg]

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

The post wasn't about which pilot group ever had the best contract, but about how management goes after those who stand up to them. What happened at AWACs? Didn't UAL management take them apart like DAL is doing to Comair? We're all brothers here. Let's support each other more and fight each other less.

 

[Flightdawg]

And therein lies the ultimate irony of union life. If you ever question ALPA, it's immediately considered proof that you're a "union busting manager."

Wrong. Complain about ALPA all you want, but be smart enough to include a workable solution. Bitching is easy, solutions are hard.

The comment wasn't about questioning ALPA, but about union busters working against any kind of pilot union, ALPA or not. How hard did SKYW management work to keep their pilots from unionizing?

 

[bvt1151]

Wrong. Complain about ALPA all you want, but be smart enough to include a workable solution. Bitching is easy, solutions are hard.

The comment wasn't about questioning ALPA, but about union busters working against any kind of pilot union, ALPA or not. How hard did SKYW management work to keep their pilots from unionizing?

You sure do make it easy to prove a point.

Here are some suggestions:

How many contracts sub-par to Comair did ALPA approve that have since directly cost Comair jobs? Heck, even some aircraft were directly transferred while ALPA slept. Start there. Negotiate towards a fixed RJ rate that at the very least will stop the intra-ALPA whipsaw.

What's being done on the scope front? Nothing other then allowing non-ALPA carriers to fill exceedingly bloated scope clauses because they don't want to negotiate a new bottom pay rate at mainline. Swallow your pride and negotiate a pay scale for those 90+ seaters to be at mainline. Draw the line by doing more than just saying you're drawing the line.

Acknowledge your failures and quit the Bush-esque "Mission Accomplished" tactic. ALPA pilots are hurting, and for ALPA to maintain the pilot groups they have now, let alone attract new ones, they have to at least admit that they've screwed up. Otherwise, status quo is all you're promising, and trust me, it ain't that promising.

Use Babbitt. Man, what an ally to have in the FAA. Although I must admit that ALPA seems to be less delinquent in this area than others, keep pushing. Make ALPA relevant again. Rest requirements, pilot training, minimums requirements.

And most importantly, understand how airlines work. As much as we don't want to admit it, ALPA flat out sucks here. We seem more intent with hurting management than helping our own pilots. Think progressively rather than protectively. Scope should have been solved in 1993, but drags on with 1,800 RJ's flying at crap wages, some of them being flown by overtly created alter-ego airlines.

Who knows, I may be wrong about those suggestions, but at least they've been made. At least they take back the initiative that management has had over the past 15 years.

 

[PCL_128]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at mainline carriers voting away their scope protections.

As far as flight time/duty time, better hiring standards, and minimum flight times, it appears as though ALPA will succeed in all of those areas by early next year. But I suspect you'll still be screaming that ALPA is a failure.

 

[Metro752]

Good thing you put that K in front of CVG, or just didn't type out Cincinnati we may not have know what airport, and in which country you were speaking of. You might have meant CDG and V instead of D.

 

[bvt1151]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups.

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

No personal offense, because I read and agree with the vast majority of what you write, but how is it you can even use that as an excuse? That's the single most damning evidence of ALPA's irrelevancy there is!