Midwest/Frontier/RAH integration information

[Minimaniac]

I just wanted to post some factual information regarding the upcoming integration of the seniority lists. For now, everyone will probably be disappointed...

The representatives of the three unions have not met yet. A meeting is planned for the near future, but this will be an introductory meeting, with no significant outcome expected. This will really be just an opportunity for the various parties to get to know each other, and share some prespective.

No formal negotiating can occur until the acquisition deals are finalized, and papers signed. The Midwest deal is settled, however the final documents have not been signed between the airlines. Until this occurs, integration will not be discussed by the unions. Per Brian Bedford, the Midwest acquisition will not be finalized until some time in August. I guess the lawyers need more time to log those billable hours...

Likewise, no talks between the unions can occur regarding Frontier and RAH seniority integration until such a deal is finalized. That is some time off, as the auction process held by the bankruptcy court will last into August, and then the legal acquisition process begins and papers will have to be signed. Do not expect even a preliminary stance from the unions regarding integration to be presented until September at the earliest, maybe late August if the judge finds some motivation to move quickly.

So, anything you "hear" between now and then is a baseless rumor. Nothing is going to happen for weeks to come.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks for the update. The post you made over in the regionals section was spot on. Collaboration and cooperation are the key to winning this thing. If we all fight between ourselves and stoop to low levels, management will win big. Thanks again.

 

[Fubijaakr]

So, anything you "hear" between now and then is a baseless rumor. Nothing is going to happen for weeks to come.

Not exactly true. Midwest just posted a furlough of an additional 41 pilots. That essentially staples them and the rest of the furloughees to the bottom of the RAH list. If F9 starts furloughing pilots, they'll go to the bottom with the Midwest guys. So, to say nothing is going to happen sort of depends on your point of view.

 

[climb2slow]

I believe in past cases, any furlough consideration relative to integration has been based on the date the acquisition was announced. But as my wife knows...I can be wrong.

 

[Minimaniac]

Not exactly true. Midwest just posted a furlough of an additional 41 pilots. That essentially staples them and the rest of the furloughees to the bottom of the RAH list. If F9 starts furloughing pilots, they'll go to the bottom with the Midwest guys. So, to say nothing is going to happen sort of depends on your point of view.

Sorry, let me clarify. Anything you may hear about how the seniority lists will be combined is baseless rumor. Furloughs are real, and both Midwest and RAH have furloughed pilots to consider.

Having talked with some members of the RAH negotiating committee, I know that, from the RAH perspective, we are going to approach the meetings with the Midwest union with an open mind. There are multiple solutions that will fall into the realm of fair and equitable, and our guys acknowledge that they have not committed themselves to one solution, and that they are looking forward to input from the other side of the table. In general, the RAH side recognizes that an expedient arbitration is in our best interest, and that an abusive integration will subvert the unity we desire for subsequently finalizing our new CBA.

 

[Cardinal]

Not exactly true. Midwest just posted a furlough of an additional 41 pilots. That essentially staples them and the rest of the furloughees to the bottom of the RAH list. If F9 starts furloughing pilots, they'll go to the bottom with the Midwest guys. So, to say nothing is going to happen sort of depends on your point of view.

Frontier has had 56 furloughed for almost a year now.

 

[StaySeated]

Sorry, let me clarify. Anything you may hear about how the seniority lists will be combined is baseless rumor. Furloughs are real, and both Midwest and RAH have furloughed pilots to consider.

Having talked with some members of the RAH negotiating committee, I know that, from the RAH perspective, we are going to approach the meetings with the Midwest union with an open mind. There are multiple solutions that will fall into the realm of fair and equitable, and our guys acknowledge that they have not committed themselves to one solution, and that they are looking forward to input from the other side of the table. In general, the RAH side recognizes that an expedient arbitration is in our best interest, and that an abusive integration will subvert the unity we desire for subsequently finalizing our new CBA.

Let me get this straight. You, RAH, are going to approach this with an open mind. Yet at the same time, you believe that an expedient arbitration is in YOUR best interest and an "abusive integration" will be bad.

Allow me to paraphrase.

We are going to meet with YX and pretend that we give a sh1t. Meanwhile, we are to chickensh1t to clearly state what we obviously want as an outcome, so hopefully a third party will decide in our favor. Most importantly, if you disagree with us you will be "subverting the unity" of your new master.

Jesus, I can't wait until it is our turn to work with the likes of you.

 

[starchkr]

OFF TOPIC HERE...Nice Avatar there Captain Morgan...I have one of those amongst my stuff from back in the day...

...ok, back on topic...​

 

[Bringupthebird]

Let me get this straight. You, RAH, are going to approach this with an open mind. Yet at the same time, you believe that an expedient arbitration is in YOUR best interest and an "abusive integration" will be bad.

Allow me to paraphrase.

We are going to meet with YX and pretend that we give a sh1t. Meanwhile, we are to chickensh1t to clearly state what we obviously want as an outcome, so hopefully a third party will decide in our favor. Most importantly, if you disagree with us you will be "subverting the unity" of your new master.

Jesus, I can't wait until it is our turn to work with the likes of you.

The longer you can prolong civil discourse between yourselves, the better the working environment will be. IOW, don't be too anxious to emulate USAirways.

 

[The Victors]

You think those f9 pay rates are low now?? Just wait until those rj kids get a 319 dangled in front of them.

 

[Minimaniac]

Let me get this straight. You, RAH, are going to approach this with an open mind. Yet at the same time, you believe that an expedient arbitration is in YOUR best interest and an "abusive integration" will be bad.

Allow me to paraphrase.

We are going to meet with YX and pretend that we give a sh1t. Meanwhile, we are to chickensh1t to clearly state what we obviously want as an outcome, so hopefully a third party will decide in our favor. Most importantly, if you disagree with us you will be "subverting the unity" of your new master.

Jesus, I can't wait until it is our turn to work with the likes of you.

All I can say is you seriously misunderstood me.

And seriously, allow me to paraphrase? Yes, please, by all means spin my words to fit your personal views. Heaven forbid you let me speak for myself.

 

[TV9Driver]

Nothing good can come from a regional buying a major. And I mean that for the entire industry, not just this situation.

Good luck to everyone.....

 

[AnimalTale]

I would rather go flip burgers or be homeless than give up my seat or flying to a Piece of garbage "commuter" like REPUBLIC.

You can spin my words anyway you want but I would cut off my B@LLS if I have to work for some F'd up commuter AGAIN.

PUKE, PUKE, PUKE!

Cya

 

[Fubijaakr]

We are going to meet with YX and pretend that we give a sh1t. Meanwhile, we are to chickensh1t to clearly state what we obviously want as an outcome, so hopefully a third party will decide in our favor. Most importantly, if you disagree with us you will be "subverting the unity" of your new master.

Exactly! Its the same as when they said, "We stood in the picket line protesting the Midwest outsource with Midwest pilots (while we were updating our Jepps to include Midwest routes)!"

 

[Trogdor]

I just wanted to post some factual information regarding the upcoming integration of the seniority lists.

The representatives of the three unions have not met yet. A meeting is planned for the near future, but this will be an introductory meeting, with no significant outcome expected. This will really be just an opportunity for the various parties to get to know each other, and share some prespective.

Do you think the F9 or YX guys want to share their seats with RAH guys? Absolutely not. All the pilots at F9 and YX have earned their seats, they weren't just hired as a warm body with 300 hours to fill the right seat. I would venture that most of the pilots at F9 or YX were regional or 135 captains for years before getting their chance at a major. Now the RAH FOs with no experience are drooling over their chance to fly the Bus. I sincerely hope that FAPA and ALPA hold their ground and fight for no seniority integration.

 

[UND_Sioux]

Do you think the F9 or YX guys want to share their seats with RAH guys? Absolutely not. All the pilots at F9 and YX have earned their seats, they weren't just hired as a warm body with 300 hours to fill the right seat. I would venture that most of the pilots at F9 or YX were regional or 135 captains for years before getting their chance at a major. Now the RAH FOs with no experience are drooling over their chance to fly the Bus. I sincerely hope that FAPA and ALPA hold their ground and fight for no seniority integration.

That will be hard to do at Midwest since their company, which is soon to fall under Republic Holdings, will not own any aircraft. The Midwest pilots have basically two choices:

1. Integrate with Republic and negotiate some kind of integration for themselves.
2. Fight for no seniority integration as you say, and watch every pilot on their list get furloughed and then they will have nobody to integrate.

RAH is buying a brand name with a few gates and some equipment. That's it. I wouldn't blame the F9 or YX guys for not wanting to integrate, but their aren't many good flying jobs to go to anymore unless you want to move to Dubai.

 

[Minimaniac]

Do you think the F9 or YX guys want to share their seats with RAH guys? Absolutely not. All the pilots at F9 and YX have earned their seats, they weren't just hired as a warm body with 300 hours to fill the right seat. I would venture that most of the pilots at F9 or YX were regional or 135 captains for years before getting their chance at a major. Now the RAH FOs with no experience are drooling over their chance to fly the Bus. I sincerely hope that FAPA and ALPA hold their ground and fight for no seniority integration.

Maybe some FO's at RAH are drooling over the chance to fly the Airbus. They are new and full of ambition. We were all that way once. That is exactly why there is not a single RAH FO on the negotiating committee (for integration). Nor do we have any 5 year Captains on the negotiating team.

500 hour new hires do not make up anything close to a majority of the pilots here at RAH. We have many pilots who come from prior 121 backgrounds, and have themselves been furloughed, faced liquidation, and gone through seniority mergers. We have many veterans and active military/reserve pilots who did not get on with a major because no majors were hiring when their contracts ran out. We have the pilot with the most hours in the F14 in the world. The bulk of the middle of the RAH seniority list is full of people who left or were forced to leave other airlines at a time when the major airlines were hiring very few. We COULD be on with major airlines if there were no age 65 rule, and if major airlines had not dug themselves into deep holes of red ink.

I'm not claiming that RAH pilots are entitled to the seats of Frontier and Midwest pilots. What I am doing is correcting the generally ignorant attitude you and others have on this site. You have not met the majority of RAH pilots. Regurgitating "facts" you learn on Flight Info and APC does not make you knowledgeable about our pilot group. The constant spew of ignorance, and the inablity to accept facts from first party sources only serves to divide the collective pilot workforce in this country. Mergers and acquisistions were mostly products of deregualtion, not modern regional pilots. Blaming my pilot group for the woes brought on by politicians and airline managers over the course of thirty years does not make me want to help you get what you feel you deserve. We are all pilots. We either all deserve the same respect and brotherhood, or we all deserve to stepped on. It appears you choose the latter.

 

[USMC319]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

 

[UND_Sioux]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

If F9 does remain seperate, I believe you will see BB get his unlimited scope relief either voluntarily or through the bankrutcy courts. Then, you will see tons of growth in Embraer 190s or 195s at Republic, while you see at least the 318's go bye-bye.

 

[likeitis]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

Excellent post and I agree 100%. I've said it before that if the whack job wants Frontier and RAH separate they will be separate no matter what RAH's contract states. On top of that many of the things that are being said about RAH pilots are dead nuts on. I spent a bit of time there during a furlough and it was an adventure in ignorance for sure. Definitely a strange corporate climate. What do you expect from a leader who makes Jim Jones look normal.