Midwest/Frontier/RAH integration information

[UND_Sioux]

Do you think the F9 or YX guys want to share their seats with RAH guys? Absolutely not. All the pilots at F9 and YX have earned their seats, they weren't just hired as a warm body with 300 hours to fill the right seat. I would venture that most of the pilots at F9 or YX were regional or 135 captains for years before getting their chance at a major. Now the RAH FOs with no experience are drooling over their chance to fly the Bus. I sincerely hope that FAPA and ALPA hold their ground and fight for no seniority integration.

That will be hard to do at Midwest since their company, which is soon to fall under Republic Holdings, will not own any aircraft. The Midwest pilots have basically two choices:

1. Integrate with Republic and negotiate some kind of integration for themselves.
2. Fight for no seniority integration as you say, and watch every pilot on their list get furloughed and then they will have nobody to integrate.

RAH is buying a brand name with a few gates and some equipment. That's it. I wouldn't blame the F9 or YX guys for not wanting to integrate, but their aren't many good flying jobs to go to anymore unless you want to move to Dubai.

 

[Minimaniac]

Do you think the F9 or YX guys want to share their seats with RAH guys? Absolutely not. All the pilots at F9 and YX have earned their seats, they weren't just hired as a warm body with 300 hours to fill the right seat. I would venture that most of the pilots at F9 or YX were regional or 135 captains for years before getting their chance at a major. Now the RAH FOs with no experience are drooling over their chance to fly the Bus. I sincerely hope that FAPA and ALPA hold their ground and fight for no seniority integration.

Maybe some FO's at RAH are drooling over the chance to fly the Airbus. They are new and full of ambition. We were all that way once. That is exactly why there is not a single RAH FO on the negotiating committee (for integration). Nor do we have any 5 year Captains on the negotiating team.

500 hour new hires do not make up anything close to a majority of the pilots here at RAH. We have many pilots who come from prior 121 backgrounds, and have themselves been furloughed, faced liquidation, and gone through seniority mergers. We have many veterans and active military/reserve pilots who did not get on with a major because no majors were hiring when their contracts ran out. We have the pilot with the most hours in the F14 in the world. The bulk of the middle of the RAH seniority list is full of people who left or were forced to leave other airlines at a time when the major airlines were hiring very few. We COULD be on with major airlines if there were no age 65 rule, and if major airlines had not dug themselves into deep holes of red ink.

I'm not claiming that RAH pilots are entitled to the seats of Frontier and Midwest pilots. What I am doing is correcting the generally ignorant attitude you and others have on this site. You have not met the majority of RAH pilots. Regurgitating "facts" you learn on Flight Info and APC does not make you knowledgeable about our pilot group. The constant spew of ignorance, and the inablity to accept facts from first party sources only serves to divide the collective pilot workforce in this country. Mergers and acquisistions were mostly products of deregualtion, not modern regional pilots. Blaming my pilot group for the woes brought on by politicians and airline managers over the course of thirty years does not make me want to help you get what you feel you deserve. We are all pilots. We either all deserve the same respect and brotherhood, or we all deserve to stepped on. It appears you choose the latter.

 

[USMC319]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

 

[UND_Sioux]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

If F9 does remain seperate, I believe you will see BB get his unlimited scope relief either voluntarily or through the bankrutcy courts. Then, you will see tons of growth in Embraer 190s or 195s at Republic, while you see at least the 318's go bye-bye.

 

[likeitis]

What's all the chatter about seniority integration about? Bedford said that Frontier will be run as a seperate fenced off operation with a stand-alone seniority list, in spite of the RAH scope clause. If the RAH pilots don't agree to it, he says he will get around it by not taking majority ownership of Frontier. Sounds like he will get his way no matter how you look at it or no matter how you feel about it. Incidently Frontier as a stand alone carrier made more money last quarter than all of the RAH companies combined. I'm not sure he wants to mess with that.

Nobody at Frontier will accept being integrated into the RAH seniority list unless it was the first 700+ slots like any other Major airline with their regional counterparts. If the RAH BOD wanted any support in that effort from FAPA, that would be the only way it will happen. Otherwise, personally I wouldn't even consider an integration and will take my chances with the whipsaw tactics that are sure to come. At least until then we (F9 pilots) will enjoy a great quality of life and relatively good pay. If/when the RAH kids get their hands on shiny new mainline aircraft flying for less than half rates, it will be time to leave the industry anyway.

BTW, the reason the RAH pilot group doesn't get any respect in the industry is not because of the possible misconception that they are fresh ERAU or UND grads, slobbering over the idea of flying "for the airlines", its because they are flying for Metroliner "commuter" pay rates, yet will fly near mainline type airplanes for those rates.

Excellent post and I agree 100%. I've said it before that if the whack job wants Frontier and RAH separate they will be separate no matter what RAH's contract states. On top of that many of the things that are being said about RAH pilots are dead nuts on. I spent a bit of time there during a furlough and it was an adventure in ignorance for sure. Definitely a strange corporate climate. What do you expect from a leader who makes Jim Jones look normal.

 

[ultrarunner]

All the MidEx pilots will be furloughed before any negotiations even start. And with that said, IMHO, there isn't any reason to sit down and even discuss it, on the part of RAH, since they still have pilots on the street.

As I mentioned before, RAH bought a brand.

 

[deadstick]

RAH is buying a brand name with a few gates and some equipment. That's it.

Don't forget the ground support company that was the late, great Skyway Airlines.

What do you expect from a leader who makes Jim Jones look normal.

Oouch. How about Jim Baker? JJ was REALLY FUBAR betwix the ears.

 

[AnimalTale]

If F9 does remain seperate, I believe you will see BB get his unlimited scope relief either voluntarily or through the bankrutcy courts. Then, you will see tons of growth in Embraer 190s or 195s at Republic, while you see at least the 318's go bye-bye.

Listen Son,

You need to yank gear a little more and stop drinking the koolaid.

MOST OF US WOULD RATHER SEE F9 GO UNDER then see our airline infested with "green behind the ear" kidz dreaming of flying something "BIG" for a price that cant even pay for living expenses.

BTW, congrats on YOUR growth and keep on working for "slave labor".

CYA

 

[sshrae]

Its sad to think the airline frontier had flying feeder routes is now going to be the parent company. Frontier made a mistake using rah as a commuter, their performance was terrible, f9 had to cut the ties early in the contract as republic was doing nothing but turn customers away from frontier. I think as a parent company they will not do any better. Frontier will become a mediocre airline at best, run by a sleezeball who is fresh out of white collar prison. At one time this was a great airline and I'm glad to have worked there.

 

[UND_Sioux]

Have you read any of the post Ch. 11 filings. I'll summarize. "RAH buys us, someobody else buys us, or we liquidate". So I guess you better hope that SWA or somebody else ponies up some more money for F9.

 

[UND_Sioux]

Where do you get the white collar prison thing? I've heard this on the board more than once. I've never heard of BB so much as getting a speeding ticket. I think you are confusing him with Jonathan Ornstein of Mesa Air Group. He has a record.

 

[sshrae]

Have you read any of the post Ch. 11 filings. I'll summarize. "RAH buys us, someobody else buys us, or we liquidate". So I guess you better hope that SWA or somebody else ponies up some more money for F9.

Not sure if you're talking to me but to answer your question I have not read any of them because I no longer work there. Just stating that it is sad that it has come to this, and maybe the airline is better defunked than going from great airline to sh1tty airline nobody cares to ride on. They had a great product, and lets face it, Republic does not provide a good product to the customer, they are just another commuter flying RJ's with extremely poor management. I know this because I saw it when I was at f9, they cancelled more flights because of crew issues, poor maint, so on and so on. I don't think SWA cares to buy f9, now they can just wait until rah runs it into the ground.

 

[sshrae]

BB was sent to prison for insider trading. He is a pos crook. Sorry to be the one to tell you this.

 

[ualdriver]

BTW, congrats on YOUR growth and keep on working for "slave labor".

CYA

How can you make a statement like that considering that the Frontier pilots MASSIVELY undercut United's pay rates, retirement, and work rules for years out of Denver! Your rates at Frontier were one of the ones (along with JetBlue, Airtran, SWA, etc.) specifically used as a hammer to drive down ours during bankruptcy. And now, unfortunately, the same may happen to you. It sucks- I know first hand. I wish you guys had demanded UAL rates 10 years ago instead of working for "slave labor" rates as well!

I feel sorry for you guys, but Frontier grew by undercutting the legacies, especially us in Denver. Now, unfortunately, you might see what it feels like to be on the receiving end of the "undercutting." Good luck. It didn't work out too well for us.

And you can spare me the "United sucks" when you angrily reply. I already know they do.

 

[Captain Morgan]

BB was sent to prison for insider trading. He is a pos crook. Sorry to be the one to tell you this.

Proof? Not defending the guy, but I think you are talking about Jonathan Ornstein.