Alaska pilots - please think twice before you vote!

[Ih8AFYesmen]

"I think with one of Capt. Shivers responses he senses this could successfully be sent back outside of mediation and quickly corrected or sweetened. He didn't specifically say that just my sixth sense from one of his answers."

This is straight from our ALPA web board. Though this is just an opinion from one of our pilots who atteneded the first road show, it's an important and a valid point. Have any of you thought the possibility that our own MEC/NC's arms are being twisted by national and/or some outside force to sell this TA? Think really hard on why our guys are trying to sell this devisive TA. Maybe our MEC is trying to tell us something but he can't really come out and say it. It's kinda like the a POWs sending a morse code with eye blinks when they were broadcasted on TV.

I read, re-read the TA and heard the NC/MEC's spill, and I cannot vote for the TA with a clear conscience. Think about the long term effect of this TA for little short term gain.

 

[mach none]

They are not being twisted and you need to put down the glue. They have looked me in the eye and stated this is the best deal we could get. We got EVERYTHING off the table we could.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Agreed, mach. So far all I've heard from the "NO" voters is "if, if, if","but, but, but" and a whole bunch of fear mongering.

Big picture time:

"Its the economy, stupid!" Remember that? No labor contract exists within a vacuum. Never decry the value of incrementalism.

 

[BeCareful!]

Have any of you thought the possibility that our own MEC/NC's arms are being twisted by national and/or some outside force to sell this TA? .

I have it on good authority (from actual posts here on FlightInfo) that this simply NEVER happens. Each ALPA group is autonomous....period. But don't take my word for it; wait a day or so and Rez or PCL128 will be here to straighten you out. You're probably paranoid or you have an active imagination.

 

[Mamma]

"I think with one of Capt. Shivers responses he senses this could successfully be sent back outside of mediation and quickly corrected or sweetened. He didn't specifically say that just my sixth sense from one of his answers."

This is straight from our ALPA web board. Though this is just an opinion from one of our pilots who atteneded the first road show, it's an important and a valid point. Have any of you thought the possibility that our own MEC/NC's arms are being twisted by national and/or some outside force to sell this TA? Think really hard on why our guys are trying to sell this devisive TA. Maybe our MEC is trying to tell us something but he can't really come out and say it. It's kinda like the a POWs sending a morse code with eye blinks when they were broadcasted on TV.

I read, re-read the TA and heard the NC/MEC's spill, and I cannot vote for the TA with a clear conscience. Think about the long term effect of this TA for little short term gain.

I was at the road show and I did not get that "sixth sense" feeling at all in regards to Shiver's answers.

 

[PCL_128]

I have it on good authority (from actual posts here on FlightInfo) that this simply NEVER happens. Each ALPA group is autonomous....period. But don't take my word for it; wait a day or so and Rez or PCL128 will be here to straighten you out. You're probably paranoid or you have an active imagination.

A day or so? I'm much quicker than that.

I'm still having a hard time figuring out what everyone thinks is so bad about your TA. Seems damned good to me. But whether it's good or bad, it was TA'd by your local leadership, not by National.

 

[Mamma]

A day or so? I'm much quicker than that.

I'm still having a hard time figuring out what everyone thinks is so bad about your TA. Seems damned good to me. But whether it's good or bad, it was TA'd by your local leadership, not by National.

There are a few bad things. First, this TA will make things more efficient at the company by allowing pilots to fly more for premium pay. This extra flying will lead to many furloughs. Second, it is the first successful salvo on the A plan. The other options are good "right now" but the company's main intent is to bury the A plan. Who knows what they will do to the other retirement plans down the road. They split the pilot group into three groups to ensure their success. Last, scope language is not good. We have solid scope with Alaska Airlines but really no scope with Alaska Air Group. The company was adamant towards not changing this leading many of us to believe they have something up their sleeve. Who knows, I may be wrong.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Last, scope language is not good. We have solid scope with Alaska Airlines but really no scope with Alaska Air Group. The company was adamant towards not changing this leading many of us to believe they have something up their sleeve. Who knows, I may be wrong.

To me, this section might as well say, "Can we give your job to a 'regional?'"

 

[Mamma]

To me, this section might as well say, "Can we give your job to a 'regional?'"

I agree to a point. They have had the ability to do this for years but have not. I don't think they want to fly/train the arctic or SE Alaska, Hawaii or Mexico using a bunch of new pilots working for some alter ego airline. RNP, weather issues and brand degradation are all things that would be expensive and difficult for the Air Group to outsource. I could see them farming out the GEG, PDX, SFO, SJC, OAK markets though and using our fleet for new markets, Alaska, Mexico and Hawaii. After they do this, they then toss a bunch more of us expensive pilots to the street. "You can apply to "insert alter ego airline here" and you will have preference" Who knows I don't put much past them.

 

[SRMairlines]

Before you vote it is simple.

Ask yourself:

Can I live with this agreement for 4-6 years?

Does this improve my QOL?

Forget the economy. It stays down 2-3 years then goes up for 6-8. And repeats itself. Everytime we are in a recession the media and so-called experts always compare it to the great depression. This one is exacerbated by politics and the media.

This is your chance to exercise your right to vote whatever way you want to. At the end of May it will either pass or fail and we will have to move on and prepare for 2013.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

They are not being twisted and you need to put down the glue. They have looked me in the eye and stated this is the best deal we could get. We got EVERYTHING off the table we could.

I guess since they looked you straight in the eye and said so makes everything okay?!?! Listen, if you can't think on your own, I'd put down whatever you are smoking and be honenst with yourself. Did they also tell you that they made a mistake and approached the company with too low of a payscale? Wasn't the December 2008 comprehensive proposal our bottom line and not the starting point? Then, how did it all of a sudden become the starting point in negotiations?
I appreciate our NC for all of their hard work and sweat; I'm not "dissing" them. But, when they are trying soooooo hard to sell this TA, don't you want to know why? Just state the facts and let the membership decide. As much as we want to live in a grey world, EVERYTHING is either wrong or right. Has this pilot group ever stood up to anything? I don't think so.

 

[BeCareful!]

To me, this section might as well say, "Can we give your job to a 'regional?'"

Of all the rotten, no good, low down, mean spirited, ignorant things to say in front of God and everyone! ALPA would never.....repeat, NEVER.....allow the outsourcing of your job or allow an airline management to degrade this proud profession of its traditionally good pay and QOL. You take that back, you scoundrel!

 

[mach none]

The furloughs will occur because of the economy this fall...not the TA. All I hear is fear this, fear that and the economy is not that bad. It must be the liberal media conspiracy again.

When I hear people like Warren Buffet say we won't begin to see the turn around for another 18 months. I believe him and not pilots. If we were so smart financially, we wouldn't be flying jets for a living.

Oh, I forgot. This could be a 10 year contract. No, no...4 years. No, no...8 years.

I am voting yes. We need to start clawing ourselves out of the hole. We need to look forward and move on from the past.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

The furloughs will occur because of the economy this fall...not the TA. All I hear is fear this, fear that and the economy is not that bad. It must be the liberal media conspiracy again.

When I hear people like Warren Buffet say we won't begin to see the turn around for another 18 months. I believe him and not pilots. If we were so smart financially, we wouldn't be flying jets for a living.

Oh, I forgot. This could be a 10 year contract. No, no...4 years. No, no...8 years.

I am voting yes. We need to start clawing ourselves out of the whole. We need to look forward and move on from the past.

I'm sick of negotiations, too.

But, in the end, if you don't have scope, your job can go to Republichautamesawest any time.

It's kinda like going through the effort of building a aerobatic plane and not bothering to put a 5-point harness in it. Sure, you may get off the ground, but when things go inverted, you can kiss that plane goodbye.

 

[mach none]

we could "what if" ourselves to death. I am still voting yes.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

"What ifs" is risk management, in a way.

The probability of outsourcing is let's say medium and the severity very high.

I don't like those odds.

 

[yellowfever]

To me, this section might as well say, "Can we give your job to a 'regional?'"

I agree! If this TA passes I think there will be an RFP out for ~100 seat airplane by the end of the year.

 

[Old School 737]

Look at the annual shareholders meeting 10k statement on page 10. It says Labor cost have historically made up to 30 or 40 % of an airlines total operating costs.

Then go to page 18 and it says Labor cost are a significant component of our total expenses, Accounting for approx 25 and 30 % of our total operating expenses in 2008 and 2007 respectively.

Also says. Each of our represented employee groups has a seperate collective bargaining agreement, and could make demands that would increase our operating expenses and adversely affect our financial performance if we agree to them.

Then page 32 says they feel that we are the highest unit costs in the industry for the size of aircraft operated.

Page 38 says they expect wages and benifits to be flat in 2009 but increase on a per-asm basis.

After reading the this it makes me think that they are getting a good deal on employee wages and benifits!!!!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I agree with mach. All I hear from the naysayers here and on the ALPA webboard is based on fear. And that fear is based on future imponderables.

Read the TA (not the summary and for pity's sake NOT the ALPA webboard), compare the differences with our current contract and make a decision based on how the changes will effect YOU.

In my case, the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm voting YES.

 

[qxpilot]

No thanks.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I agree with mach. All I hear from the naysayers here and on the ALPA webboard is based on fear. And that fear is based on future imponderables.

Read the TA (not the summary and for pity's sake NOT the ALPA webboard), compare the differences with our current contract and make a decision based on how the changes will effect YOU.

In my case, the positives outweigh the negatives. I'm voting YES.

You took the words right out of my mouth regarding fear, except it's the folks who are favoring this TA who fall on the word, "fear" - fear of the bad economy, fear that the mediator will park us, fear that we won't get another TA for years, etc. If you are so fealess, why don't you take a chance and send it back?

I've read the TA twice, cover to cover. I read everything possible concerning this TA, including any web boards. I've heard what our negotiators had to say. I think we are all intelligent enough to make up our own minds and I doubt that the web boards have any effect on how we are going to vote. One important question to ask is, is this TA good for MAJORITY of this pilot group? My answer is, H*LL NO! Let's be honest, this TA heavily favors the 55+ group and captain line holders not in jeopardy of losing any ground. We, as a group, would be selling ourselves very short for some misley short term gains, IMO.

 

[Britpilot]

Of all the rotten, no good, low down, mean spirited, ignorant things to say in front of God and everyone! ALPA would never.....repeat, NEVER.....allow the outsourcing of your job or allow an airline management to degrade this proud profession of its traditionally good pay and QOL. You take that back, you scoundrel!

Yawn...:nuts::nuts::nuts:

 

[Fubijaakr]

One important question to ask is, is this TA good for MAJORITY of this pilot group? My answer is, H*LL NO! Let's be honest, this TA heavily favors the 55+ group and captain line holders not in jeopardy of losing any ground. We, as a group, would be selling ourselves very short for some misley short term gains, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. The work rule changes in this contract are good for all line holders, not just senior pilots. And line holders make up the majority of the pilot group.

Here are but a few of the improvements that benefit EVERYONE:

1. Instant trip trading. Gets Crew Skeds out of the mix.
2. Training bidding.
3. The ability to split/combine trips in trip trading.
4. Elimination of the bank program.
5. MOU for SEA ETOPs base. This will actually require MORE pilots.
6. Retirement program choices. Some guys prefer a 401k retirement option.
7. Increased sick bank cap.
8. Ability to sell vacation days.
9. Ability to pick up trips during trip displacement.
10. Designated premium pay trips.
11. Horrors! VSA pay for all VSA flying not just that over monthly max. Disclaimer: VSA is NOT popular among junior reserve Capts/senior F/Os who see this program as delaying their progression. However, there are plenty of junior F/Os (as well as Capts) who avail themselves of this program to increase their income in complete compliance with the contract.

All of these are good for line holders.

Reserves? Choice of 11 hour or 2 hour callout with pay incentives for "short call".

In fact, you may even see senior pilots choosing 11 hour reserve, especially during holiday months.

So that's just the first DOZEN improvements that come to mind. Improvements for ALL line holders, not just senior Captains.

I guess if your agenda is just to upgrade or get off reserve quickly, you're probably not thrilled with this TA. However, in the long run YOU will spend MORE time as a line holder than in any other status. YOU will benefit from these changes.

However, you have to be able to think and project in a slightly longer time frame than the next 6 months.

 

[mach none]

If there is a furlough, it will be a result of a reduction in flying. Its the economy stupid. The TA will not cause this company to furlough.

I will predict it passes by 75% or more.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

If there is a furlough, it will be a result of a reduction in flying. Its the economy stupid. The TA will not cause this company to furlough.

I will predict it passes by 75% or more.

It ain't all about the economy, dumba$$! You guys can defend all you want the new premium pay VSA and the ability to pickup up to 5 hours above the monthly max, but it comes down to GREED, period! This would only be a good deal when there are no furloughed pilots and the company properly staffed. If 50% of the pilots picked up 5 hours above the monthly max, the company would need approximately 40 less pilots. Justify this "flexibility" anyway you want, but it is what it is..... STAGNATION for us junior folks. The company will furlough anyways this Fall if the demand for travel dips below their projections, but with this TA, the number of furloughs will be higher.

I agree with you on one thing. This TA will probably pass because we have a bunch of selfish sheep and whole lot of broke FOs. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Greed? How about the greed of the whole anti-VSA crowd. The ONLY reason YOU'RE opposed to it is YOU think its impeding YOUR upgrade.

News flash, sport. The Company only uses VSA for 2-3% of the total flying schedule. That's not enough for any upgrades.

So, who is the greedy one? You'll change your tune when you're senior. Remember, it was the PILOTS who introduced VSA to the contract. It was sold as the "Senior Pilot's Pay Raise" during a concessionary contract cycle.

 

[igneousy2]

Greed? How about the greed of the whole anti-VSA crowd. The ONLY reason YOU'RE opposed to it is YOU think its impeding YOUR upgrade.

News flash, sport. The Company only uses VSA for 2-3% of the total flying schedule. That's not enough for any upgrades.

So, who is the greedy one? You'll change your tune when you're senior. Remember, it was the PILOTS who introduced VSA to the contract. It was sold as the "Senior Pilot's Pay Raise" during a concessionary contract cycle.

I had no problem with VSA prior to January 1. Every hour that you pick up on VSA is just a little bit longer that our pilots are going to stay on the street. Justify it in your mind however you want...pick up all the VSA you want...however, just know that you ARE being selfish, you are keeping unemployed pilots from working...and charma is a BITCH!

The company only uses VSA to cover 2-3% of the flying...don't you see that with a pilot group of 1500 pilots 2-3% is 30-45 pilot positions! Would you rather have 80 pilots furloughed (now) or 35-50 pilots furloughed which is where we would be according to YOUR numbers.

Additionally, the point we are trying to make is that it is 'only' 2-3% NOW...but when you make VSA BETTER...it will only INCREASE.

Once everybody comes back from the street...knock yourself out. Until then do your 75 hours and go home.

Unfortunately, I think this vote is going to come straight down seniority lines. If we pass this it will...

1. increase VSA thereby exacerbating the furloughes. Furloughs will be longer and deeper because of this "improved" VSA.

2. Everything will stagnate as the 55+ guys hang out longer trying to get there high-5 up eating up all the VSA they can squeeze into their 20 day off lines. All of the 59-60 year olds will be encouraged to stay beyond 60.

3. The pilot group will forever be divided between the haves and have-nots. The 55+ guys will be long gone by the time this will matter...the junior pilots will be dealing with the repercussions for the rest of our careers - by voting for this TA we will be guranteeing that we will be subject to a freeze prior to us retiring severely reduincg the potential value of our pensions. Don't think this "choice" will be the status quo for the rest of our career. It will come up over and over at every contract for the rest of our careers until 51% don't give a damn about the A-plan...just about the time switching to a DC plan would be a BAD idea for the more junior of us.

I think we are very close to a deal. A little bit of tweaking would make this a pallatable interim contract. Prohibiting VSA during furloughs and allowing new hires the same choices the incumbants have would be a giant step toward me voting yes.

Right now we are better off in the long run with the status-quo.

The pre-kasher 900 wages are about to start falling off the high-5 of the most senior guys making it less and less desirable to hang out. Because of the new ERISA rules, every year the 50% lump-sum is getting smaller and smaller. These are the reasons the senior folks feel under the gun to get a deal done NOW.

Unfortunately, if you are within 10 years of retirement you are better off taking the TA.

If you have anything more than 10 years left we are far better off staying with the status-quo until the "external factors" that everybody keeps speaking about turn more favorable.

I am off the fence and I am a solid NO.

 

[Mamma]

The pre-kasher 900 wages are about to start falling off the high-5 of the most senior guys making it less and less desirable to hang out. Because of the new ERISA rules, every year the 50% lump-sum is getting smaller and smaller. These are the reasons the senior folks feel under the gun to get a deal done NOW.

As I read it, the TA allows the geezers to freeze their A plan and go with the 13.5%. They would reap all the benefits from the A plan and still stuff the 13.5% into their coffers for 5 years. No incentive to leave at all.

 

[Ocity]

Greed? How about the greed of the whole anti-VSA crowd. The ONLY reason YOU'RE opposed to it is YOU think its impeding YOUR upgrade.

Flying VSA when there are pilots are furlough is the ultimate "greed indicator". Have you ever been furloughed? I'm guessing no.

Nobody is upgrading in the next few years anyway therefore I don't think the VSA objections are personal greed. Quite the opposite, it's about reigning in those who rationalize holding the head of their fellow pilots under water to cover 2-3% more flying.

To Each his own.

 

[QCappy]

With this new contract every line holder can give themselves an extra payraise. Drop your line to 75, then volunteer for VSA. Instant 15 hours of 150% pay! What a deal!

Of course, I can't do that I'm on reserve in paradise, I mean Anchorage. Did I say paradise? Must be cabin fever getting to me.:nuts: