Alaska Airlines Pilots Reach an Agreement in Concept on a New Contract

[Green]

any news on hourly rate increase? Do the furloughees get the signing bonus as well? Thanks for bringing it back on topic. Hey General maybe you should start an Alaska vs DAL thread.....it gets old on this one...

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Okay, don't mention trolls, and they go away.

$24k/$20k? That's about $34M. That's a chunk of change.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Okay, don't mention trolls, and they go away.

$24k/$20k? That's about $34M. That's a chunk of change.

It's chump change compared to $400M + interest that that they took from us. Lowered expectation..... what are we, a bunch of WDs?

 

[General Lee]

any news on hourly rate increase? Do the furloughees get the signing bonus as well? Thanks for bringing it back on topic. Hey General maybe you should start an Alaska vs DAL thread.....it gets old on this one...

Hey, did someone call my name??? Thanks for that. I think it is great AK is possibly getting a raise, and if it is more than our current 738 rate, then when we merge we hopefully can bring that along. Sounds FANTASTIC. I can't wait for my first Sitka layover during the Summer.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chief Pilot]

It's chump change compared to $400M + interest that that they took from us. Lowered expectation..... what are we, a bunch of WDs?

Agreed.

Don't worry the company will find a way to write off the bonus regardless of the number. $34M to get an engaged pilot group once again is nothing and will more than pay for itself with a profitable year.

I've seen posts and heard opinions from our guys that something must be in the works as far as mergers or buyouts or outsourcing our flying etc, all because the company finally and quickly came around and started to bargain in good faith. Management's inability to gain trust from this pilot group is a well deserved result of years of double-talk, scare tactics, abuses and outright lies. I don't personally trust them one bit and am waiting to see what happens around the corner.

At the same time I have to look at the results of the past two and a half years and how the pilots have conducted themselves. We have been professional and done our job. We do not rush anything. We do our job safely. In the past we not only did our job, but we did many other people's or work groups' job for them. The instant we saw something that was going to cause a snag in the operation, we were on the horn telling someone about it. Now we are doing our job. We are flying the airplane safely and professionally, but if there are no marshallers, well...I guess we'll just have to see if someone figures it out. I mean ops knows when we're supposed to push, right? We've stopped doing everyone else's job and the result has been that in order to keep even a reasonable DOT on time record, scheduling has had to build in a lot of extra time and inefficiencies.

I'm getting long winded, but the last couple years has seen this pilot group become less and less engaged and the scare tactics haven't been working. They've actually backfired and shown the resolve of a unified pilot group. The security training debacle is a good example of that.

I believe that the cost of continuing along this course has been deemed too great by the bean counters on the second floor, especially with summer coming up and the economic forecasts for 2009. They were warned that the NMB wasn't going to allow them to continue the foot dragging forever and that we would eventually be released to self help. I think they want to get this stuff behind them as badly as we do and get everyone moving in the same direction. Whether it happens and we ratify anything is another matter...we'll all just have to wait another week or so for actual numbers and language.

This is all just my opinion of course, but I think many of us have been too close to this and have lived it every day to take an objective look back. When you do, it seems (at least to me) that we've done a pretty good job of staying the course and getting the desired results.

I'm hopeful, though somewhat skeptical, that we see an equitable contract.

CP

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

If the rumor of mid $170's/hr for the captains is true, it's not going to be pretty. We'll have to wait and see the whole package.

 

[Going2Baja]

If the rumor of mid $170's/hr for the captains is true, it's not going to be pretty. We'll have to wait and see the whole package.

I heard the "number" would have a '7' in it and it would be at the high end...So $175.01?

I'd like to hear f/o pay caps though!

Baja.

 

[SRMairlines]

On the Capt side I keep hearing 170 something and pre-kasher at the end of the contract. Nobody seems to know about the Fo's. - (The one's that took the biggest cuts in 05')

 

[General Lee]

Don't pull "an Airtran." The Captains got pretty good raises and the FOs got little ones, and were told that upgrade wasn't that far away. Then, the wheels stopped.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[msmb]

I figure an upgrade is years in the future. We will be on our next contract before captain pay affects me. The f/o's are the one's who need the decent pay raise since that's the payscale for a while-and as was said, f/o's took the biggest hit. I'd just like to see the numbers as well as the rest of the package.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I've heard 68% of captain's pay rate for FOs. In any case, don't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure that these mofos are getting away with murder again. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[wscrj]

We still gotta vote, remember....

 

[turbodriver]

At least you CAN vote......

meantime, us 60 red-headed stepchilds are going to get stiffed on the signing bonus.....

 

[Green Banana]

At least you CAN vote......

meantime, us 60 red-headed stepchilds are going to get stiffed on the signing bonus.....

No you are not, that was told to me.
Lets all cool our heals and let our MEC get this straight. Then vent after we see the deal. You have a lot of guys here that are not about to sell you out.

 

[Z_Pilot]

I have faith in Alaska's pilot group. I am optimistic that they won't sell us furloughees and FO's out.

ZP

 

[turbodriver]

I hope you're right. Because the MEC's actions over the next few weeks will determine how divided or united this pilot group will actually become.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I am liking the rumors of what is in this TA so far. Pay rates barely above bankrupt carriers and lower than carriers that took substantial paycuts. What makes this TA even more delicious to an executive such as myself is the fact that these "new and improved" payrates will leave Alaska pilots about 20% BELOW Southwest, a DISCOUNT airline. Don't feel bad though, you will be making at least 5 bucks an hour more than aviation legend and powerhouse AirTran. They will really be looking up to you. I will personally be calling your MEC reps to thank them. Great job guys!

 

[kingair1]

If you put a dollar figure on our pension, I heard that its around $20.00 per hour added ( like we can all count on a pension anymore ! ). I am not implying the rumors are acceptable.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Guys,
I don't have a crystal ball, but I try not to speculate on stuff that is largely out of my control....now did anyone else hear about 20k for Captains and 25k for FO's as signing bonuses?

Chief,

The rumor we’re hearing around AA is 10% immediate pay raise with a 4% increase per year for 4 years plus a $20,000 signing bonus for CA’s and $25,000 signing bonus for FO’s. No change to their retirement benefits.

Here’s how the numbers play out:

12 Year 737 CA FO

Current 154 97
2009 169.40 106.70
2010 176.17 110.97
2011 183.22 115.40
2012 190.17 120.02
2013 198.17 124.82

Current
LUV 198.00 131.00
AA 165.69 112.67

I’ve got to agree with Lorenzo on this one. Overall, looks weak. We’re hearing LUV is currently inking a contract with 3% pay raises (based on profitability), so it basically takes four years for Alaska CA’s just to catch up to LUV's present rate. The FO’s never catch up to LUV.

A 4.0% annual increase is just barely over the current inflation rate. What happens if Barack’s bill causes hyper inflation a few years down the road??
I wonder if their guys will fall for the chump change.

Looks like another big win for management.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

If you put a dollar figure on our pension, I heard that its around $20.00 per hour added ( like we can all count on a pension anymore ! ). I am not implying the rumors are acceptable.

Kingair,

From the “for what it’s worth” department, I was told by a former APA President that our 1.25% A-Fund was valued at 6% annual pay. You’re A-Fund is 1.9%. It looks like your 20% figure is overly inflated.

The added risk of the A-Fund must also be accounted for when making comparisons. A lot of legacy pilots have come out with pennies on the dollar for their A-Funds.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[kingair1]

I said $20.00 not 20 % . But that is from someone I flew with a while back... Oh well...

 

[igneousy2]

Chief,

The rumor we’re hearing around AA is 10% immediate pay raise with a 4% increase per year for 4 years plus a $20,000 signing bonus for CA’s and $25,000 signing bonus for FO’s. No change to their retirement benefits.

Here’s how the numbers play out:

12 Year 737 CA FO

Current 154 97
2009 169.40 106.70
2010 176.17 110.97
2011 183.22 115.40
2012 190.17 120.02
2013 198.17 124.82

Current
LUV 198.00 131.00
AA 165.69 112.67

I’ve got to agree with Lorenzo on this one. Overall, looks weak. We’re hearing LUV is currently inking a contract with 3% pay raises (based on profitability), so it basically takes four years for Alaska CA’s just to catch up to LUV's present rate. The FO’s never catch up to LUV.

A 4.0% annual increase is just barely over the current inflation rate. What happens if Barack’s bill causes hyper inflation a few years down the road??
I wonder if their guys will fall for the chump change.

Looks like another big win for management.

AA767AV8TOR

I have no idea about the validity of your numbers however, based on the official e-mails we have already been sent by ALPA

1. FO pay...I am paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording, however, ...FO pay is to be restored to the pre-kasher CA to FO ratio. If Kasher had kept the ratio which was 70% for a 12 year FO, then that would put the current 12 year FO rate at 109.19. I keep hearing more senior pilots talke about 65%, however, when I calculate the pre-Kasher numbers the ratio ranges from 70% down to 50% at year 2 and then 30% at year 1. If someone can explain to me how it worked pre-kasher then it would be most helpful. Here is what I figure the FO rates should have been had Kasher respected the traditional ratios between CA and FO rates based on the prekasher/kasher rates available on the MEC website.

YR CUR Should'of
1 35.16 37.82
2 61.67 65.66
3 72.99 79.30
4 80.15 83.69
5 85.66 86.50
6 87.89 90.10
7 89.47 94.55
8 91.07 95.96
9 93.07 99.49
10 94.69 103.83
11 95.94 106.91
12 96.83 109.19

If the AA rumore is correct coupled with the statement from our union I would think that a 12th year FO should make $120 now and then $140 by contract end. No?

2. Retirement - The union also stated that the retirement offerings were in fact changing. From reading between the lines of the e-mail merged with the previous offers from the company I think we are all going to have a choice of staying in the A-plan as is (1.9A%/3%B)...having a combined mini-A/increased B (last known company offer was 1%a/7?%B)...or going to an all B-plan option (last known offer was 12%B).

 

[Going2Baja]

Hot off the web boards - Capt & F/O retro will be equal....No word on the amount.

Baja.

 

[Chief Pilot]

Chief,

I’ve got to agree with Lorenzo on this one. Overall, looks weak. We’re hearing LUV is currently inking a contract with 3% pay raises (based on profitability), so it basically takes four years for Alaska CA’s just to catch up to LUV's present rate. The FO’s never catch up to LUV.

A 4.0% annual increase is just barely over the current inflation rate. What happens if Barack’s bill causes hyper inflation a few years down the road??
I wonder if their guys will fall for the chump change.

Looks like another big win for management.

AA767AV8TOR

AA767,

I agree that if all we see is a 4% increase, then a year over year increase of 4%, it's pretty weak. I dug out Alaska ALPA's short term proposal that was submitted to the NMB in December and the numbers are significantly different.

12 year rates CA/FO

2009 178.03 (up 15%) / 118.58 (up 21%)
2010 185.15 (+4%) / 123.32 (+4%)
2011 192.56 (+4%) / 128.26 (+4%)

These were the rates that ALPA told management were rock bottom. Our next contract is planned to go out further, so I obviously don't know if these will be totally accurate. However, I highly doubt that the MEC is rolling over and playing dead for a simple +4% to start. It will never pass membership ratification and they know it. We also have an intact A & B plan and work rule improvements from what I've heard.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again, until we see the actual TA this whole discussion is merely an exercise in speculation. Glad to see you guys are looking at decent rates for the 737.

CP

 

[Sioux115]

Any actual language out for the TA yet?

 

[wscrj]

Nope, nothing yet. The MEC is hoping to get something out before ALPA's support staff people come to self help on their own contract. Getting down to the wire.

 

[StopNTSing]

another bump....

Any word on final language?

 

[Baze]

We should find out on Monday or Tuesday.

Any word on final language?

 

[av8instyle]

We just got word that the MEC is meeting Monday to vote on whether or not to send it to vote. If so, we will probably know some numbers by the end of the week. I'm personally not holding my breath for any substantial numbers. After a 34% cut it would take around a 50% raise to get us back to where we WERE. I doubt that's gonna happen any time soon.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

No one has seen it but I smell turd.