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Pinnacle Near Top of Their Game in January '09 On-Time Performance

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I blame the massively overblocked flights. And the reason they can do that is because the union in their infinite wisdom has the worst negotiated pay rules in the industry.

The company can afford to overblock these flights to whatever they want because the pilots only get paid an average trip value. Any time flown over the average trip value, the crews will not get paid for the first 15 minutes of it.

This new contract needs block or better.
 
Wow, so you really pay attention to this?

I'm all about staying on schedule to help out my passengers, but I'm can't remember the last time I personally caused a delay. Weather, mechanicals, flying out of NYC - it's luck of the draw every leg.

But hey, if that's what floats your boat...
 
Flyprdu said:
I blame the massively overblocked flights. And the reason they can do that is because the union in their infinite wisdom has the worst negotiated pay rules in the industry.

The company can afford to overblock these flights to whatever they want because the pilots only get paid an average trip value. Any time flown over the average trip value, the crews will not get paid for the first 15 minutes of it.

This new contract needs block or better.
Click to expand...

I won't defend the union leadership which allowed the trip value/15 over system at Pinnacle. I do know we won't be voting on a TA that includes it.

I do ask the question: Were these "the worst negotiated pay rules in the industry", when the union negotiated them in May of 1999?

Now I ask a second question: Are you aware that when said contract was signed in May 1999, Express I airlines was a small outstation based Saab operator? At that time, the pay rates were good, and the work rules were good for the operating environment.

Since that time, Express I has become Pinnacle, a hub based CRJ operator. The work rules are not so good in the current environment and the company has taken great pains to use every loophole in the contract to maximize efficency while reducing staffing. To blame the union for this is rediculous. They negotiated a nice little contract for a small 1999 outstation based Saab operator. A lot has changed since then, and could have been corrected in May 2004 at the amendable date. The company is to blame for the non-ammendment of the current CBA.
 
The only two companies I've ever come across that have actually nice, helpful and reasonable gate agents are SWA and Frontier...(and almost every non-US carrier I've had the pleasure to deal with) other than that they all suck. Comparing gate agents is like comparing regionals-what's the point?
 
I guarantee that Block or Better will not be included in this new TA whenever it comes out.

We walk around like abused spouses making excuses for ourselves and the way we are treated.
 
ChickenSled said:
I do ask the question: Were these "the worst negotiated pay rules in the industry", when the union negotiated them in May of 1999?
Click to expand...

Yes. It was chicken sh*t in 1999. And it is chicken sh*t today. I've never known a work group to credit so little for hours flown.
 
ChickenSled said:
I won't defend the union leadership which allowed the trip value/15 over system at Pinnacle. I do know we won't be voting on a TA that includes it.

I do ask the question: Were these "the worst negotiated pay rules in the industry", when the union negotiated them in May of 1999?

Now I ask a second question: Are you aware that when said contract was signed in May 1999, Express I airlines was a small outstation based Saab operator? At that time, the pay rates were good, and the work rules were good for the operating environment.

Since that time, Express I has become Pinnacle, a hub based CRJ operator. The work rules are not so good in the current environment and the company has taken great pains to use every loophole in the contract to maximize efficency while reducing staffing. To blame the union for this is rediculous. They negotiated a nice little contract for a small 1999 outstation based Saab operator. A lot has changed since then, and could have been corrected in May 2004 at the amendable date. The company is to blame for the non-ammendment of the current CBA.
Click to expand...
Excuses satisfy only those who make them.
 
Flyprdu said:
Yes. It was chicken sh*t in 1999. And it is chicken sh*t today. I've never known a work group to credit so little for hours flown.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you would have liked to work under Mesa's credit system that was in place prior to their recent TA where they only get trip value regardless of how long it takes to get there.

The current system in place at PCL is worth about a 2% salary hit with the 15 minute no-pay window after trip value. I doubt you'd ever see a TA get past the pilot group without the elimination of this 15 minute buffer.
 
DoinTime said:
Perhaps you would have liked to work under Mesa's credit system that was in place prior to their recent TA where they only get trip value regardless of how long it takes to get there.

The current system in place at PCL is worth about a 2% salary hit with the 15 minute no-pay window after trip value. I doubt you'd ever see a TA get past the pilot group without the elimination of this 15 minute buffer.
Click to expand...
It's a 2% hit if you assume 100% credit to trip value. Add in what other airlines get in additional credit from block or better and various overrides... the gap is far far greater.

When will you stop making excuses for yourself and realize that 9E is now the bottom of the barrel?
 
ChickenSled said:
I'd be curious to see any factual evidence that you can provide that the 1999 Express I CBA was grossly inferior to any other small regional's CBA in 1999.
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Look at all the exclusions you included in your little factual evidence inquiry?

How does Pinnacle's 1999 contract compare to all other Memphis based Saab 340 air carriers with less than 300 pilots?

Give me a break. Block or better is not a new invention. Many airlines have had it... Pinnacle's contract was and is a steaming turd, plain and simple.
 
ChickenSled said:
When you quit slamming the union on this board, join a commitee and become involved in the solution?
Click to expand...
I'm so sick of hearing that tired comeback. The solution will come when the equivocating and excuse making ends... and the pilot group and the MEC finally decide to grow a pair.
 
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Flyprdu said:
It's a 2% hit if you assume 100% credit to trip value. Add in what other airlines get in additional credit from block or better and various overrides... the gap is far far greater.
Click to expand...

You assume trip values are always less than scheduled time. They are not, in fact on an annualized average they are the same if not a little bit better on the TV side. Getting paid "scheduled" time or better is an invitation for the company to slash marketing times in order to save on pilot payroll. That would make the pilots earning block time only which is the worst pay scheme of all.

I was not making any references to overall pay outside of the current PCL flight credit system.
 
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Every scheduled block has a buffer in it. Use common sense: You don't hear other airlines fighting for trip value pay. They fight for Block or Better. Why? Because over the year you will earn more making scheduled block than averaged trip value.
 
Flyprdu said:
Every scheduled block has a buffer in it.
Click to expand...

Yeah....that buffer is scheduled arrival time +14 minutes to qualify as DOT on-time.


Use common sense: You don't hear other airlines fighting for trip value pay. They fight for Block or Better. Why? Because over the year you will earn more making scheduled block than averaged trip value.
Click to expand...

Care to back up that statement with any facts? "Block or better" is a sound bite used to describe any number of schemes that pay either a predetermined value or the actual flight time, whichever is greater. Horizon, Mesaba, and several other carriers use average values for credit calculation.
 
IamGumbyDammit said:
Why you haven't left PCL.
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There's a tremendous difference between leaving a company and being satisfied with the status quo. Too many pilots at 9E are comfortable enough with the way things are here to be committed to taking aggressive steps to change it.

That's why you see RJs taxiing at 45 mph, and captains who are hellbent on closing the door on time. Why hotels get switched to the dirtiest fleabag on the strip without so much as a peep from the union. And why captains continue to pick up open time even as we downgrade.

Comfortable Complacency.
 
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Flyprdu said:
The solution will come when the equivocating and excuse making ends... and the pilot group and the MEC finally decide to grow a pair.
Click to expand...

So what's your excuse?


You tell me why that's even close to being relevant.. I might consider telling you.
Click to expand...

Its relevant because you willfully took employment at PCL knowing what the contract was like.
 
Flyprdu said:
I'm so sick of hearing that tired comeback. The solution will come when the equivocating and excuse making ends... and the pilot group and the MEC finally decide to grow a pair.
Click to expand...

Only a gutless coward backstabs their pilot group and MEC anonymously on a public web board. Gee, who should grow a pair.
 
Flyprdu said:
There's a tremendous difference between leaving a company and being satisfied with the status quo. Too many pilots at 9E are comfortable enough with the way things are here to be committed to taking aggressive steps to change it.

That's why you see RJs taxiing at 45 mph, and captains who are hellbent on closing the door on time. Why hotels get switched to the dirtiest fleabag on the strip without so much as a peep from the union. And why captains continue to pick up open time even as we downgrade.

Comfortable Complacency.
Click to expand...
This is the result of having a pilot group full of followers and not leaders. Change can only come if there are more leaders than followers. Don't take this as a personal attack. But you know better than anyone what kind of pilot group you have as a result of the massive hiring boom Pinnacle experienced for a few years. You hired hundreds of pilots from the gutter. Pilot factories kicking out pilots left and right to make your HR happy so they could staff the right seat of that lawn dart as fast as possible.
The result: a weak pilot group with a sub-part, decade-old, weak contract with unacceptable work rules. There is really no room for debate on the subject. The facts are overwhelming to back up these examples. And excuses only continue to delay the process of change. Once the pilot group is united and commited to working together for change, good things can start to happen. This, in my opinion will probably not happen due to the cancer that plagues your pilot group ( the Gulfstream and Jet U guys). Those characters are a different breed and don't get it. This is why your contract is in the current state it's in. Period.
 
IamGumbyDammit said:
Only a gutless coward backstabs their pilot group and MEC anonymously on a public web board. Gee, who should grow a pair.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's time for someone to start airing our dirty laundry. Maybe then something will get done. The MEC tries to bury all dissent with nasty little threats and whispers of management is listening. When in reality, it's just a tactic to keep everyone in lock step as we march in place.
 
SEVEN said:
This is the result of having a pilot group full of followers and not leaders. Change can only come if there are more leaders than followers. Don't take this as a personal attack. But you know better than anyone what kind of pilot group you have as a result of the massive hiring boom Pinnacle experienced for a few years. You hired hundreds of pilots from the gutter. Pilot factories kicking out pilots left and right to make your HR happy so they could staff the right seat of that lawn dart as fast as possible.
The result: a weak pilot group with a sub-part, decade-old, weak contract with unacceptable work rules. There is really no room for debate on the subject. The facts are overwhelming to back up these examples. And excuses only continue to delay the process of change. Once the pilot group is united and commited to working together for change, good things can start to happen. This, in my opinion will probably not happen due to the cancer that plagues your pilot group ( the Gulfstream and Jet U guys). Those characters are a different breed and don't get it. This is why your contract is in the current state it's in. Period.
Click to expand...
What is the solution?
 
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