Melting Pot

[Sctt@NJA]

There has been a bunch of talk about pilot experience levels lately and it occurred to me that NetJets really is more of a melting pot than most places.

We have:

Military pilots of every possible background from army King Airs to airforce F-16s.

A ton of regional airline pilots with experience in everything from Beech 99s and up. (actually Cape Air C-402s and up)

A whole bunch of former mainline legacy pilots including a former #1 on the list at United.

A few pilots who came directly from flight instructing.

Pilots from the charter and corporate world.

We are a little backward in demographics with many of the most senior pilots in their 30s or 40s.

I suppose flying here gives a good opportunity to see for yourself what difference background and experience make in determining the quality of a pilot.

Personally I see almost no correlation between background and quality.

But this could be a hot topic I think... perfect for flight info. What background or experience do you think makes the best pilot?

 

[GSXR600]

My call sign.....Babagoose!!

 

[amaineiac]

What background or experience do you think makes the best pilot?

IMHO, attitude is what makes the pilot, not where they came from. I've flown with great guys from the military, airlines, corporate. I've also flow with guys that shouldn't be driving a car that came from the military, airlines, corporate.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

IMHO, attitude is what makes the pilot, not where they came from. I've flown with great guys from the military, airlines, corporate. I've also flow with guys that shouldn't be driving a car that came from the military, airlines, corporate.

Agreed. Regardless of the background the safest and most competent pilot will always be the one who recognizes that he will never know everything and always strives to be better. Also, a good/safe pilot usually recognizes what his/her limitations are and always stays within them. Having said that, some raw talent and a good knowledge base are good prerequisites, but I would say most of us have that if we've gotten this far.

 

[Go Fly]

Personal limitations

Agreed. Regardless of the background the safest and most competent pilot will always be the one who recognizes that he will never know everything and always strives to be better. Also, a good/safe pilot usually recognizes what his/her limitations are and always stays within them. Having said that, some raw talent and a good knowledge base are good prerequisites, but I would say most of us have that if we've gotten this far.

You brought up a point I've been discussing with some folks lately - flying within "his/hers limits." By the time we get to the point in our profession where we are flying for a company like NetJets shouldn't our personal limitations be set by the limits of the aircraft, company or FARs. For example, I've flown with a captain that said they wouldn't land the Ultra on a runway less than 4,000ft. Well NetJets says we are limited to 3,500ft and the book has the airplane right around 3,000ft (of course dependent on conditions). If the airplane is capable of doing it, the FARs and SOPs allow it, shouldn't we as professional pilots operating at this level also be able to do it? Of course I'll always respect someones decision not to do something based on there own safety margin but if we are operating within the limits of the aircraft it does make me question their ability to operate at this level.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Agreed. Regardless of the background the safest and most competent pilot will always be the one who recognizes that he will never know everything and always strives to be better. Also, a good/safe pilot usually recognizes what his/her limitations are and always stays within them.

Exactly...The only problem is too many type "A" personalities who are afraid to admit when they are wrong, or make a ton of excuses when they do something wrong (even the most minor thing)...These same type "A" personalities feel the need to be "instructors" on the job, and micro-manage too much. They make the job way harder than it needs to be.

 

[captain dad]

Exactly...The only problem is too many type "A" personalities who are afraid to admit when they are wrong, or make a ton of excuses when they do something wrong (even the most minor thing)...These same type "A" personalities feel the need to be "instructors" on the job, and micro-manage too much. They make the job way harder than it needs to be.

I agree. It is a team effort not a one pilot show.

As an FO, I love a partner/captain to set a humble and grateful tone on day one. You can be the quirckiest dude on earth, but if you are easy going and willing to help get the job done without the tude, it will be a great tour. Plus you won't get a bad rep.

The "I don't do that, because I'm the Captain!" types are very few and far between, but they are very memorable.

"Ya hear me TOOLBOX?" "Catch the hint?"

 

[CE750Driver]

Captain Dad, the fact that you are the biggest blowhard for NJA, and that NJA lost Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn as customers to Avaint Air over 2 years ago, makes me wonder why you don't change your avatar. Maybe if you make it something good, they will come back and suck on the tit of RTS like you.

We at NJA, can only hope. LOL

 

[Fozzy]

Discretion.
Confidentiality.
Two words that come to mind.
Hope someone has a friend of a friend that could forward that post along to Mr. Russell.
Service like that won't keep your customers around for long.

 

[blzr]

Definition..A pilot can fly themselves out of a bad situation, a "Good" pilot can avoid a bad situation before he/she gets there

 

[earhart]

Definition..A pilot can fly themselves out of a bad situation, a "Good" pilot can avoid a bad situation before he/she gets there

Ooh, Ooh, I know! I know! Is the answer; YOU'RE A C*NT?

 

[brokeflyer]

Captain Dad, the fact that you are the biggest blowhard for NJA, and that NJA lost Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn as customers to Avaint Air over 2 years ago, makes me wonder why you don't change your avatar. Maybe if you make it something good, they will come back and suck on the tit of RTS like you.

We at NJA, can only hope. LOL

weird.....i just flew a certain passenger pair just a few weeks ago....i think your info is flawed, but im not saying what info is flawed.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

NJA lost Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn as customers to Avaint Air over 2 years ago

Uh... Hmmm... Well.... Ahh...

A friend of a friend of my neighbor who once told fortunes on the Carnival circuit told me that the above mentioned statement is not true.


Disclaimer: I have no personal knowledge whatsoever to validate or deny any association of above mentioned people and any fractional company I may or may not be associated with. Continued use of Flight Info may cause nausea and head aches. If you have an erection that last more than 4 hours, call your girlfriend immediately. Flight Info is not for everyone and patients are advised to speak with their union leadership prior to subscribing.

 

[landlover]

best pilots? the short answer


freight dogs!


but at the end of the day who really cares where you came from, as long as you are fun and don't kill us all.

 

[Pervis]

An even shorter answer, regardless of age or experience. Ability. How you handle your pax or freight is a different issue all together.

 

[CRJFlyer]

I agree. It is a team effort not a one pilot show.

As an FO, I love a partner/captain to set a humble and grateful tone on day one. You can be the quirckiest dude on earth, but if you are easy going and willing to help get the job done without the tude, it will be a great tour. Plus you won't get a bad rep.

The "I don't do that, because I'm the Captain!" types are very few and far between, but they are very memorable.

"Ya hear me TOOLBOX?" "Catch the hint?"

Exactly, I consider myself a fairly "cool" individual. (Meaning I have a lot of things in my life outside of flying, and 9 outta 10friends aren't pilots.) I don't care if your the biggest nerd on the planet as long as your easy to get along with in the plane. I've flown with guys in my age group who i thought would have been easy to fly with. Only to find out they annoy the hell outta me.

I don't mind a guy who does every little thing by the book etc.. As long as they don't treat me like a know-nothing SIC.. Or think they know everything.

Example...I usually turn on the Landing lights when we get down to approach stages of flt. Just a habit from airline days.

The X has a pretty bright set of recog. lights. That basically do the same thing as Landing lights. This one guy asks why I do that since the recog. lights do the same thing. I told him just force of habit since the other planes I flew for 5000 hours didn't have recogs. He turns the landing lights off and says we don't need them on.

I guess that was the end of that.. Even though it hurt nothing to have the landing lights on..

Small things like that annoy the hell outta me.

 

[greygoose]

The X has a pretty bright set of recog. lights. That basically do the same thing as Landing lights. This one guy asks why I do that since the recog. lights do the same thing. I told him just force of habit since the other planes I flew for 5000 hours didn't have recogs. He turns the landing lights off and says we don't need them on.

I guess that was the end of that.. Even though it hurt nothing to have the landing lights on..

Small things like that annoy the hell outta me.

Maybe acting like a crew and talking to him about it, instead of turning them on yourself would help out. You just bashed the PIC for being a know it all, but yet you are acting superior above your partner and turning them on because of your habit.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Maybe acting like a crew and talking to him about it, instead of turning them on yourself would help out. You just bashed the PIC for being a know it all, but yet you are acting superior above your partner and turning them on because of your habit.

It's absolutely amazing to see that no matter what someone writes, there's always a dickhead lurking in the shadows ready to pounce. Unreal man.

Yeah, now lecture me about SOPs cause I don't know anything about them.

 

[Pervis]

CRJ, I've been in the X for almost 5 years. For the sake of discusion, as a technique only, which I brief to each new crewmate I fly with, The landing and taxi lights go out with the gear retraction. Hand slides over to flap lever and is ready for the command. Comes in handy at times when ATC calls and other distractions may break your normal routine. The landing and taxi lights come on upon gear extension as well. Ties two items together nice and neatly.

As you said, the recog lights are nearly as bright. With that slightly lower wattage though, my technique may also save the light elements, as the extreme heat and cold they go through each cycle can shorten their life at the higher setting, without gaining addition visibility for other a/c. Besides, the taxi light goes out with retraction anyway, and you reduce your workload to one panel when passing 18,000' in either direction. Not really that big a deal, but I do try and reduce as much workload as I can in the air so I can pay attention to more important matters.

Don't get insulted, but I would suggest you learn to "forget" what you did in other a/c or companies. Flight experience will naturally carry over, but each a/c and company who flies them have there own procedures, as well as each pilot. And every pilot has their own techniques. Techniques should be discussed by all or suggested by more experienced crewmates, but the procedures you may find contrary to your past are not debatable without just cause, like emer situations.

The attitude that "we did it this way at XYZ..." is typical for younger pilots. We all go through this stage. The question is, will you, like most, get over it?

After flying nearly 40 a/c in 34 years, including 2 turbo props and 6 jets in my career, I have also found it far easier on my continually diminishing brain cell capacity to dump past practice and dissimilar a/c specific items. In addition, I don't waste energy thinking my crewmate is a jerk for wanting to do it his/her way, regardless of who the senior crewmate is.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Maybe acting like a crew and talking to him about it, instead of turning them on yourself would help out. You just bashed the PIC for being a know it all, but yet you are acting superior above your partner and turning them on because of your habit.

Maybe your one of the Castro's we're talking about. This is not a PIC vs. SIC debate. It's a douch.bag vs. non-douch.ebag debate. Anyone can be a a$$ in the cockpit. It's how you go about things that seperate us all.

Do I really need the PIC's approval to turn on the landing lights at 3000ft. being vectored for final? REALLY? I'd hate to have to be in your cockpit.

I'm as chamilian like as anyone at NJ. I try to go with the flow as much as possible. Been an SIC for 9yrs. and have no intention of ACTING as a PIC until I have a 4th stripe.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Now just for the sake of this post, and my previous example of MICRO-Managing..

Why would you as PIC feel the need to inform me(or any pilot at this level) about how to go about moving your hand from the lights to the flaps? I would think most people would feel that you think they are are moron and need instruction about how to do this. I would think most pilots have they're own cues about getting the flaps up as closly to 400 ft. as possible. Mine is visually looking at the RA, seeing 400', nd calling 400'.

If you had informed me about how to get the flaps up, I would probably have to hand you a $20.00 and say thanks for the instruction.

BTW age has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. My 20+ A/C, 1 turbo-prop and 3 jets in 13 years probably suffices to get landing lights on. My 4 companies in 9 years of pax service gives me a decent ability to forget the last company.

 

[CRJFlyer]

duplicate post

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Now, now boys (Pervis and CRJFlyer) play nice or you'll both be told to leave the sandbox for the afternoon.
Hey, are you both in the X? If yes, that'll make for an interesting time. Play nice. :beer:

 

[Hugh Johnson]

NetJets suffers the same problems as the airline industry in that it has to focus on the lowest common denominator pilot. With union protection, you can't get rid of the marginal performers.

 

[brokeflyer]

yes its sad that we need a union in this industry.

 

[Pervis]

CRJ, I was simply discussing technique, not trying to give you instruction. I thought I was clear in my post. It seems you read what you wanted to read rather than what I intended. I always listen to the techniques of everyone I fly with. It appears you don't.

 

[FLYLOW22]

NetJets suffers the same problems as the airline industry in that it has to focus on the lowest common denominator pilot. With union protection, you can't get rid of the marginal performers.

Oh sure! Leave it to "Hugh Johnson" to criticize "average" performance.

 

[CRJFlyer]

"The attitude that "we did it this way at XYZ..." is typical for younger pilots. We all go through this stage. The question is, will you, like most, get over it?'

For the sake of discussion.... all I did was make an example about a topic/conversation I was having with another poster about different types of people in the aviation business.( a simple landing lights example and how some guys are micro-managers and some are not.)

and on cue you turned it into a literal conversation with your own personal opinions about proper landing light usage. And a pre-determined opinion about how my age(which you have no clue about), or past companies somehow played a role in the current example. Which is all it was, an example. I wasn't looking for anyone's opinion about landing lights. If I want that I'll go to recurrent and ask. Because as we know opinions are like a.ssholes...

I've learned alot from alot of different pilots. I've also left the cockpit scatching my head wondering what the heck the other guy was thinking about. If it's something I like or am curious about I'll ask. If not then I don't. But at this stage of the game we've all got our own personal techniques that adhere to the SOP's. I myself am not an "A" type person. I don't need to strut my knowledge around or have to be right all the time. I'm happy just nodding my head in agreement until the next guy tries show me his technique and then I do the same with that guy.

So until we fly together, I guess I'll continue to turn the landing lights on when I think about them on approach. And then when you tell me not to until the gear down checklist, we'll know who each other is.
Take care.:beer:

PS ...it was the age reference that rattled my cage...I started in the airlines at 21 and have been getting the same age crap for a long time. Don't worry though, I'll get over it.:nuts:

 

[Hogprint]

You brought up a point I've been discussing with some folks lately - flying within "his/hers limits." By the time we get to the point in our profession where we are flying for a company like NetJets shouldn't our personal limitations be set by the limits of the aircraft, company or FARs. For example, I've flown with a captain that said they wouldn't land the Ultra on a runway less than 4,000ft. Well NetJets says we are limited to 3,500ft and the book has the airplane right around 3,000ft (of course dependent on conditions). If the airplane is capable of doing it, the FARs and SOPs allow it, shouldn't we as professional pilots operating at this level also be able to do it? Of course I'll always respect someones decision not to do something based on there own safety margin but if we are operating within the limits of the aircraft it does make me question their ability to operate at this level.

In short yes. We should be able to do it and staying with your example of short runways we have now been training in the sim for that scenario for at least three years.

I think guys get used to landing on 5k+ runways and then in the middle of a tour get that Cable Union call or Leaky, TX and they haven't gone into a smaller field in a while or since the sim (which is totally flat and coastal environment). Now the pucker factor goes up.

I had a few tours several summers ago where we were going into 4000' or smaller fields almost every day. Once you get used to it, it was no big deal. The plane will do it and then some.

I guess it's just a mindset.

 

[Semore Butts]

I was waiting for the Netjets Bid?

I proposed to Netjets that they open up a Tactical Branch. (I just read "What Color Is Your Parachute, trying to create a cush management job because I'm smarter then a line pilot (I've heard that before?)).

I can teach you how to get an Ultra from Altitude to "Flare" in 20 miles and in the dark! (What a stud!) Using only residual light from Bagdad!

Someone taught me, and now I can teach you.

My point is, you can train for various situations.

3500 foot runway is one of those. It's just about training for it.

If you haven't been training for it, I would think you were stupid not to be apprehensive. (Except of course Gold CFI's)

Just because the FOM says you can do it doesn't you can blindly do it? (I.E. Wet?) Can you "de-rate" the runway (Ask a HAwker Pilot)

Words to live by;

To throw soldiers into battle untrained is to throw them away. (Sun Tzu, book of War, Not quite a qoute)

"Usually the person trying to get you to do something stupid is in the chain off authority that will be hanging your a$$ when it turns out f-cked up"! Semore Butts, 2007, Bagram Afghanistan.

(They wanted use to deliver some urgent supplies (and they were urgent) to a 4000 foot strip at the 8000 foot level. When I ask why the helicopters wouldn't do it the answer was "the weather is to bad for the helicopters". Lastly, the first 1000 feet of runway was PSP (Metal Grating)

FOM say 3500 feet? We had 4000....Good to go...right?

Have a good one. Great Melting pot thread, I have learned from every kind of pilot I have flown with at Netjets (And the Flexjets guys I've flown with "Rock"), Freight Dogs, Commuters, Even Air Force! ! I wish I could tell them all how much what they taught came in handy in some tight spots overseas!

Have a goon one, Semore.