DL CRJs

[NuGuy]

I knew this, and it also appears that we maintained the status quo with the MEC. We have a CPZ coordinator with no voting rights.
So, yes I feel that we should just staple them now. I would love to have them on our list. Personally I think that they should be on there now.
The CPA pilot group is relatively new and there would not be one of them that would have an issue with it. I say lets do it!

Heyas ACL,

Agree.

CPZ was conceived and operated from the start as a extension of NWA (now DAL). For the entire time it has been existence, it has been %100 under the operational control of the NWA. There hasn't been a single decision over there that hasn't had some kind of NWA stamp of approval from some NWA muckety muck.

The absorption of CPZ would be a no brainer.

The same thing cannot be said Mesaba, PCL, Comair or any other operator. Each one of these operations has at least an "arms length" away from NWA/DAL.

It will be easy to merge CPZ. The agreement is essentially in place already. It will be MUCH harder with XJ (but I support this %100 as well), because you're talking about a VERY split fleet that includes Saabs, and mama DAL wants/needs that cheap turboprop feed. I also feel the senior pilots there will NOT like the opportunity that is presented, and it will become more trouble than it is worth.

MY prediction. Further LARGE re-wind of the 50 seaters. VERY small markets will continue to be served by XJ Saabs. The non-wholly owned operators will find their contracts gradually paired down and/or eliminated. I think the speed at which this happens is dependent on the outcome of the Mesa case.

I would say PCL will be cut loose. ASA as well. I don't think there is room enough for everyone, and these two have the most 50 seat exposure.

Large RJ feed will be consolidated into a single carrer. It wouldn't surprise me to see XJ split into the jet operation, which will be folded into CPZ, and a spin off of the turboprop operation.

One thing is certain. Fee for departure is dead, dead, dead, and mama Delta will not sign any new ones, and will try everything they can to wiggle out of the one's they have now.

FFD commits TOO much money when the economy goes south, and the "fuel cost caps" many contained cost the mainline a horrific amount of money during the run-up of oil, while loads collapsed.

Going forward, you will see what lift operators there are forced to "pay the freight" on the services they provide. Look for fee-per-passenger, and the regionals will be taking much more on the risk side. Guaranteed profits will be a thing of the past.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation.

Not true.

 

[michael707767]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation.

Not true.

Actaully, I have heard more than one ALPA rep defend the scope concession during LOA 51 saying that we could not have recieved the retirement money if we had not given scope relief.

DALPA went from saying they would never concede on anything above 70 seats to down playing the new scope and talking up the retirement money and bankruptcy claim in the space of a week. Draw your own conclussions.

 

[Ridgeback]

If the aircraft says Delta on the side, it should be flown by Delta pilots. We should start with the larger EMB175s and CRJ900s and work our way down.

This proves my point...In one breath you say anything with delta on the side...but let's start with the biggest??

Why not start with the mesaba Saabs?

Also for the record MESABA DOES HAVE A FLOW AGREEMENT WITH DELTA!!!!

 

[FBN0223]

This proves my point...In one breath you say anything with delta on the side...but let's start with the biggest??

Why not start with the mesaba Saabs?

Also for the record MESABA DOES HAVE A FLOW AGREEMENT WITH DELTA!!!!

Ok, so to be clear...if a Delta pilot is furloughed he/she can flow-down to a Mesaba Captain position and knock junior Mesaba pilots off the bottom. This is the case at Compass.

We would not start with the Saabs because those are the lowest paying and most of the SAAB flying was never NW or DL or at least hasn't been for several years. The EMB175s, and the CRJ900s fly former DL and NW route segments. I personally have flown almost every route segment in the Compass system during my 4000 hours as a DC-9 Co-pilot.

Also retaking the 34 seat Saab flying should be a goal but it's definitely not where we would start. Once again, in recapturing some of our flying, we would start where the money is. This is on the larger aircraft(EMBs and CRJ-900).

 

[FDJ2]

Actaully, I have heard more than one ALPA rep defend the scope concession during LOA 51 saying that we could not have recieved the retirement money if we had not given scope relief.

Michael, the question was, do we give them 30 76 seat aircraft and keep our contract, with it's notes, claims, pay raises, duty rigs, etc, or do we take it to the arbitrators panel and roll the dice, hoping to win and not have our contract rejected.

Quick question for you. Without a contract, what are the scope limits?

 

[michael707767]

Quick question for you. Without a contract, what are the scope limits?

Without a contract there is no scope. Thats a simple one.

The union always made a big deal that it was only six seats....so why not do it. I saw it just the opposite. It was only six seats so I don't think there is any way the company would have let that deal fall through over scope.

Quick question for you. If scope was the issue that was going to potentially jeapardize the whole deal and cause a BK rejection of our contract, why was DALPA saying they would hold the line at 70 seats? They were very forceful in saying they would not allow bigger RJs.

 

[Smarta$$]

If compass shared the same MEC and operated 50 seat aircraft on old DC9 routes, you guys would not be suggesting the staple.

 

[spitfiremk8]

NuGuy,

Think about way you're saying. The economy is the only variable as to what will happen with RJ flying. If Mngmt. and invstors can put more money in their pocket by flying RJs, then they will and you know it. Not saying that it is a good thing.

 

[flyboyzz1]

Heyas ACL,

I would say PCL will be cut loose. ASA as well. I don't think there is room enough for everyone, and these two have the most 50 seat exposure.

Large RJ feed will be consolidated into a single carrer. It wouldn't surprise me to see XJ split into the jet operation, which will be folded into CPZ, and a spin off of the turboprop operation.

One thing is certain. Fee for departure is dead, dead, dead, and mama Delta will not sign any new ones, and will try everything they can to wiggle out of the one's they have now.

Nu

Doesn't ASA ala SkyWest have a pretty tight contract with Delta? Heard they were already at the minimum block hours.

 

[Nindiri]

What is regaining "RJ" flying worth to Delta pilots?

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

$600,000,000.00

 

[CptMurf]

Anyone else read the details regarding flow-downs. Just Compass right?

Mesaba also. 13 people flowed up, which opens 13 spots for people to flow down into.

MM is upset because there are people here at XJ that have been trying to get on with NW (DAL w/NW domiciles) for not years, but decades. More senior to 9E, more senior to CPZ, and most likely more senior to the majority of DCI carriers. To staple CPZ would be a disservice to all that have been working in traditional ways to work at NW/DAL. I understand CPZ's claim, due to the one union, but then again aren't we all one union. Yet another testiment to why we need a national seniority list.

 

[CptMurf]

Also retaking the 34 seat Saab flying should be a goal but it's definitely not where we would start. Once again, in recapturing some of our flying, we would start where the money is. This is on the larger aircraft(EMBs and CRJ-900).

The Saab CASM is much better than either of these airframes. The Saabs a money-maker, always has been.

With the exception of EAS cities, I parked many a Saab right next to a DC9 everyday. Most DC9 cities are/were covered by multiple fleet types.

 

[Monster Buck]

Deleted.

 

[Schwanker]

Mesaba also. 13 people flowed up, which opens 13 spots for people to flow down into.

MM is upset because there are people here at XJ that have been trying to get on with NW (DAL w/NW domiciles) for not years, but decades. More senior to 9E, more senior to CPZ, and most likely more senior to the majority of DCI carriers. To staple CPZ would be a disservice to all that have been working in traditional ways to work at NW/DAL. I understand CPZ's claim, due to the one union, but then again aren't we all one union. Yet another testiment to why we need a national seniority list.

It was MSA's unwillingness to work with NWA/NWA ALPA which forced the creation of CPZ. NWA would have happily placed the 175's on the MSA certificate if they had scope relief from NWA ALPA. NWA ALPA wouldn't give it because MSA ALPA wouldn't sign off on unlimited flowback to these seats. Thus, CPZ was created. NWA ALPA allowed the scope relief being NWA pilots had 100% flowback rights to these seats. MSA wanted the jets with no risk. CPZ pilots stepped up knowing the risks. This is why they are in a better position to be absorbed by mainline than MSA. (WARNING...next opinion only--shared by many) MSA pilots were short sighted as they wanted all the 76 seat flying for themselves if they got the jets--wouldn't allow for unlimited flowback.

There are great threads from 2005(?) on this very subject if anyone cares to do the digging.

Schwanker

 

[Monster Buck]

It was MSA's unwillingness to work with NWA/NWA ALPA which forced the creation of CPZ. NWA would have happily placed the 175's on the MSA certificate if they had scope relief from NWA ALPA. NWA ALPA wouldn't give it because MSA ALPA wouldn't sign off on unlimited flowback to these seats. Thus, CPZ was created. NWA ALPA allowed the scope relief being NWA pilots had 100% flowback rights to these seats. MSA wanted the jets with no risk. CPZ pilots stepped up knowing the risks. This is why they are in a better position to be absorbed by mainline than MSA. (WARNING...next opinion only--shared by many) MSA pilots were short sighted as they wanted all the 76 seat flying for themselves if they got the jets--wouldn't allow for unlimited flowback.

There are great threads from 2005(?) on this very subject if anyone cares to do the digging.

Schwanker

Compass pilots didn't exist at the time to step up. If you mean later after its creation, most all of them were loosing there job somewhere else.

 

[NuGuy]

It was MSA's unwillingness to work with NWA/NWA ALPA which forced the creation of CPZ. NWA would have happily placed the 175's on the MSA certificate if they had scope relief from NWA ALPA. NWA ALPA wouldn't give it because MSA ALPA wouldn't sign off on unlimited flowback to these seats. Thus, CPZ was created. NWA ALPA allowed the scope relief being NWA pilots had 100% flowback rights to these seats. MSA wanted the jets with no risk. CPZ pilots stepped up knowing the risks. This is why they are in a better position to be absorbed by mainline than MSA. (WARNING...next opinion only--shared by many) MSA pilots were short sighted as they wanted all the 76 seat flying for themselves if they got the jets--wouldn't allow for unlimited flowback.

There are great threads from 2005(?) on this very subject if anyone cares to do the digging.

Schwanker

Heyas Swank,

You are very close to the mark on this. There is a history between NWA and MSA that goes way back and the flow through-brand scope issue has been an epic fail because certain individuals just didn't want to play ball.

The way I heard it:

Rewind back to 2001-02. We were ---><--- this close to an industry changing agreement where everyone would be covered under the same umbrella of scope.

Just to GET to that point, we had to fight past a LOT of knuckleheads on our OWN property. These are the a$$hats that exclaim "an airlink pilot will flow through over my dead body", but if you got a beer in him would just tell you that he didn't want his squadron buddy to have to start in a RJ or Saab.

Or the dingleberry whale guy, who walked off the farm at 21 and was a WB captain at 27, who had an overinflated sense of entitlement (same type of guy that voted 'no' on the furlough assessment for COBRA).

But we had actually made it past these dudes, and were in place to make an agreement, but the same kind of hardnoses at the Airlink carriers refused at least pay the freight on what was coming their way.

EVERYONE was going to have to take a hit to make it happen. But that's how deals are done. Get the flying under one roof, THEN make improvments down the road. The hardnoses (maybe %10 of the airlink list, but very squeaky wheels) had no intention of flowing, so there was NOTHING in it for them, despite the fact that it was a WIN/WIN/WIN for all the pilot groups involved.

It scuttled the whole deal.

Occam's Razor has the whole story. PM him, and cry over what could have been.

The memory of that lingers. Any similar deal will have to fight the same battles all over again. It's MUCH easier to get to 'GO' and collect your $200 with CPZ.

Nu

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Compass pilots didn't exist at the time to step up. If you mean later after its creation, most all of them were loosing there job somewhere else.

That's not quite true MB, most of us in the upper half of the list were not "loosing" (there's that tricky word again...) our jobs at all. We came to Compass because we wanted to be there, not because it was the only show in town. We were aware of the risks, and we accepted them.

 

[FBN0223]

Scchwanker and Nu thanks for the insight. cheers

 

[FBN0223]

Schwanker and Nu thanks for the insight. cheers

 

[N2264J]

I thought I read somewhere that DALPA got a $600,000,000 bargaining credit for scope relief in the bankruptcy negotiation.

http://www.rjdefense.com/2007/010707up.pdf

Actually, the Delta MEC's realized a $150,000,000 bargaining credit for that. The NWA MEC provided management with an a'la-carte menu subsequent to the $15,000,000 credit to divert 40 growth aircraft from their ALPA brethren at Mesaba and Pinnacle. This included $30,000,000 to permit the alter ego Compass.

http://www.rjdefense.com/2004/110804up.pdf

If this is true, do you think the top half of the DAL seniority list would want to pay this back in order to take it back? Would the flying be done at a competative rate?

I submit that only a couple of progressive thinkers in the whole union would want to buy it back because the "buy back" price is going to go up.

No, the time to do it was the summer of 2000 when Delta and Comair were both in Section 6. That window is now closed and you can thank ALPA and the Delta MEC for the erosion of the profession while selling out union "brothers" without their knowledge or consent.

 

[Fly4hire]

No, the time to do it was the summer of 2000 when Delta and Comair were both in Section 6. That window is now closed and you can thank ALPA and the Delta MEC for the erosion of the profession while selling out union "brothers" without their knowledge or consent.

So who are you going to blame/sue when DAL management decides not to renew feeder contracts, and reduce RJ feed? Keep puffing and beating your chest.

 

[N2264J]

So who are you going to blame/sue when DAL management decides not to renew feeder contracts, and reduce RJ feed?

I don't subscribe to the wacky fantasy that a union can control the marketplace with a labor agreement.

I do believe, however, that a union should treat all of its members fairly in accordance with its Constitution and By-laws.

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, the Delta MEC's realized a $150,000,000 bargaining credit for that.

Well if the RJDC says it's true it must be.:laugh:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

http://www.rjdefense.com/2007/010707up.pdf

Actually, the Delta MEC's realized a $150,000,000 bargaining credit for that. The NWA MEC provided management with an a'la-carte menu subsequent to the $15,000,000 credit to divert 40 growth aircraft from their ALPA brethren at Mesaba and Pinnacle. This included $30,000,000 to permit the alter ego Compass.

http://www.rjdefense.com/2004/110804up.pdf



I submit that only a couple of progressive thinkers in the whole union would want to buy it back because the "buy back" price is going to go up.

No, the time to do it was the summer of 2000 when Delta and Comair were both in Section 6. That window is now closed and you can thank ALPA and the Delta MEC for the erosion of the profession while selling out union "brothers" without their knowledge or consent.

This is the same spiteful attitude that derailed everything back in 2000.
Fact is that no matter what you want to believe, there is no where in any DCI contract that states that the HAVE to renew it.
Realize that ALL DCI carriers are contract carriers and they flying lives and dies by this contract. Contracts at times get canceled or not renewed. It happens all of the time on corporate America.

 

[mynameisjim]

Where is the opportunity to absorb regional flying? How long is the joint contract that Delta/NWA just agreed to? Is there another opportunity to make changes besides the end of that agreement?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don't subscribe to the wacky fantasy that a union can control the marketplace with a labor agreement.

I do believe, however, that a union should treat all of its members fairly in accordance with its Constitution and By-laws.

Maybe not able to control the marketplace, but we should be able to control who operates the airplanes within the brand.

I don't think we will ever know how serious the Majors were at tripartied scope negotiations. Frankly, I think they made a lot of political hay by blaming the regional pilots while the major's reps traded flying to preserve as much of their pre-bankruptcy contracts as they could.

The radicals on either side place unity at risk. But everyone with a big picture view should realize it is a win / win to use the new generation 100 seaters (when they arrive) to build a single seniority list across the brand.

It will take a political shift away from senior mainline pilots thinking there is a benefit to selling flying that they see as below them and away from regional pilots who believe they are entitled to super seniority on a mainline list.

The result would be the elevation of our profession and much better job progression and security for ALPA's membership.

Plan B will be to stick to current scope language and let the contractors die on the vine. My crystal ball and traffic trend data indicated it was better to interview and jump at the first opportunity. My crystal ball did not include the NWA merger. Ask me in about 25 years how it turned out.:cartman:

 

[~~~^~~~]

Where is the opportunity to absorb regional flying? How long is the joint contract that Delta/NWA just agreed to? Is there another opportunity to make changes besides the end of that agreement?

I think the SLI result puts pressure on Delta to seek scope revisions if they plan on furloughing. The 76 to 70 seat trigger went from roughtly 10% of the list, down to 4%.

Occam used to make some really thought provoking posts on this subject, but he has not been on in a while.

There is also the problem with available airframes. Everything is either too big, or too small. The C-Series is potentially a home run when it gets here.

 

[Monster Buck]

That's not quite true MB, most of us in the upper half of the list were not "loosing" (there's that tricky word again...) our jobs at all. We came to Compass because we wanted to be there, not because it was the only show in town. We were aware of the risks, and we accepted them.

I guess my anger comes from the idiot who says in his post "mesaba pilots" when speaking of the MSA MEC opinion in negiotiations. The Mesaba pilots never have been the hard headed pilots he claims them to be. Especially in the realm of entitlement. I can't stand it when someone blames a whole group of people, of which they were never a part of, for the choices of a few. Like the whole blame all Comair pilots for the past errors for which most of them were not a part of.

To your point, I remember in arguments in the past on these boards, vocal Compass pilots saying they should be stapled to the Delta list. Many used the argument that they were not like other regionals and should be stapled since most all came from other places flying large equipment. Not CFI's new hires like the other regionals. Being pilots looking for work because they lost their jobs at places like ATA...Hence my point that the Compass pilots stepping up when the Mesaba PILOTS would not is a bunch of crap. Compass pilots didn't exist when this bankruptcy bs was going down. Compass pilots stepping up ,to do as this guy insinuates, the flying "mesaba pilots" would not is also bs.

I was not in the negotiations so I can't tell you what the MSA MEC said. But I know for a fact that the Mesaba Pilots were willing to "step up". Especially at a time when almost all of our own flying had been at risk with threats from the likes of our parent company with Big Sky and over half of our pilot seniority list gone. There was a hell of a lot more going on than just a simple argument of hard headed Mesaba guys not willing to bend.