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B19 Flyer

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B19 Flyer said:
I think it's sadder when a union pulls down an entire company due to greed and inaction. You are worried about only pilots. It shows your complete lack of vision.

I'm concerned about the viability of an entire company, all the workers within the company, all the passengers that fly on the company, all the vendors that rely on the company for income, all the investors that place their trust in the company and the community that depends on the existance of the company.

When a union has a CBA and fails to respond to changes in the marketplace, the pain is extended far and beyound that of just a handful of pilots.

But you wouldn't know that because you can't see beyound that of the tip of your greedy, insensitive union mongering nose.
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Dude, it's obvious you're FLOPS... that being said, your so called company has been somewhat of a joke from the beginning. It's like a rent-a-wreck dealership. You think it was the union that is bringing it down???? NO WAY! The union is trying to make YOU GUYS play by some sort of rules so the pilots can do their jobs without fear. I've been here for 10 years and I love the fact that I don't have to get on my knees in order to keep my job. That's how you like it isn't it?


NOTE: It's not the pilots who are a joke, it's the operation and the people running the show. I figured I'd make that clear before someone spins it.
 
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brokeflyer said:
ok for the 4th time now, try to answer this please.

If there was no union, would the company pay me what I am worth?
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I'll take an easy stab at it. There are companies out there that are operated by people who truly respect their employees and reward them for the work they do. These companies are few and far between. When talking about a company such as FLOPS and NJA, you're talking about companies that employ thousands of people. At that point, it becomes a money machine. There are no names, just numbers. As the company grows and makes more and more money, the upper management people begin to lose sight of the "family" values that it started with. Success turns to greed and that's where the employees start to lose their footing. Management at companies of this size care about one thing... profit. The less they have to pay their employees, the more they can take for themselves. Having a union in place ensures that this upper management team plays by some sort of rules. It prevents the working fools from being screwed out of the things they are entitled to.

Have the unions caused companies to go out of business? Probably, but look at how that particular company was being run in the first place. While the big guys at the top were building their golden parachutes as the company was losing money, they were asking the union for concessions. Seeing what management was doing, they said "no way." This eventually caused a few places to go under and that's what B19 uses as proof. Forget about what the big cheeses were doing at the same time. That's not something he wants to address. Why would he? It would make HIM look bad.
 
G200_PILOT said:
Dude, it's obvious you're FLOPS... that being said, your so called company has been somewhat of a joke from the beginning.
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Wow...what would NetJets have been considered at that time? Eeek. How embarrassing for you, especially when you're back there again. Can't wait to dredge these threads back up (posts of those spouting such crap).

Buffet made it a really respectable company I bet, paying less than Wal-Mart pilots for crap rules too
 
G200_PILOT said:
I'll take an easy stab at it. There are companies out there that are operated by people who truly respect their employees and reward them for the work they do. These companies are few and far between. When talking about a company such as FLOPS and NJA, you're talking about companies that employ thousands of people. At that point, it becomes a money machine. There are no names, just numbers. As the company grows and makes more and more money, the upper management people begin to lose sight of the "family" values that it started with. Success turns to greed and that's where the employees start to lose their footing. Management at companies of this size care about one thing... profit. The less they have to pay their employees, the more they can take for themselves. Having a union in place ensures that this upper management team plays by some sort of rules. It prevents the working fools from being screwed out of the things they are entitled to.

Have the unions caused companies to go out of business? Probably, but look at how that particular company was being run in the first place. While the big guys at the top were building their golden parachutes as the company was losing money, they were asking the union for concessions. Seeing what management was doing, they said "no way." This eventually caused a few places to go under and that's what B19 uses as proof. Forget about what the big cheeses were doing at the same time. That's not something he wants to address. Why would he? It would make HIM look bad.
Click to expand...


That's a real well thought out reply. I don;t know why you wasted it here....lol

The problem is management don't realize that WE the crewmembers are the ones that directly control the future of the company. Not management. Let's face it, we sell a product. Our profits are a direct result of customers paying for a service they could probly live without. It would suck for them but it's not like we are making food or medicine or something. The pilots are the ones the customers see, they talk to, they confide in.

NJ's knows this, this is why they pay us accordinly. During '04-'05 moral was so bad the owners seen this. After all, they don't talk to management. It was us the pilots that made this company what it is.

It will be a long time before furloughs happen, the company has about a thousand places to tighten up the cash leakage before we would even consider ANY kind of consession. Our salaries represent about 10% of the money that is "moved" out the door. And everyone here knows it. Pay cuts, furloughs, etc would just ruin everything we all built. Stupid spending is the first thing to be looked at, dumbass scheduling would be looked at, and retarded sales people would be spoken to.

Im sure people hate unions for whatever reason. I hate how unions (auto makers) pay someone $25 hour to sweep the floor. That is absurd, but, that's how things are. We as pilots on the otherhand have a responsiblity that is so far above any manager it don't even register on the responsibilty chart. We need this union to keep management in check, that is all. Othewise we would be paid crap. We're not fresh outta high school on our first job, we are highly skilled pilots and that is the way it is. You can't change it.

Have a nice day.
 
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Voice Of Reason said:
Wow...what would NetJets have been considered at that time? Eeek. How embarrassing for you, especially when you're back there again. Can't wait to dredge these threads back up (posts of those spouting such crap).

Buffet made it a really respectable company I bet, paying less than Wal-Mart pilots for crap rules too
Click to expand...

Having worked for both companies (FLOPS and NJ), I don't think either side has a flawless history and neither is in much of a position to throw stones, considering. Both pilot groups and companies are in process.
 
I'll call G200 out. What a whiny, fingerpointing, spoiled baby. Dude, you bash the moderator yet in doing so you show yourself to be a complete moron who can't keep his mouth shut. Do you really think we care what you think on this thread? If you disagree with this thread, leave and go to another. It's like if you don't like a tv show, you just turn the channel.
 
I love it! B19, through a sobbing voice.....

"But they found out who I am! Waaaaaaa. You have to fix this..... Waaaaaaaa I will sue if you dont..... Waaaaaaaaa You better make it sticky too. Waaaaaaaaaa"

What a WD.:puke:
 
Also, remember that you ain't the boss of me, but I could be the boss of you.[/quote]

This is clearly meant to be a threat. I don't like threats. B19, I believe you should retract this statement, and apologize.
You suggest companies would be better off without unions, and then you make the kind of attack that forces pilots to fear for there jobs and organize for self defense. You are willing to discuss these issues with us, claiming that you only want equal time, and then you pull out the hammer that only management has.
What makes this attack far worse, however, is that you would then deny us the equal leverage that a union would bring! What hypocrisy!
Our occupation is under attack from forces beyond any of our control, and we all fear for the well being of our jobs, our families and ourselves. We don't need you to threaten us further.
Remember, when I am at flight level 410 and something goes wrong, management is not the boss. According to federal regulation, the guy (or gal) sitting in the left seat is. That person has both the authority and the responsibility to make all decisions regarding the safe outcome of that flight. The passengers would all agree, that person should be free from worry about threats from his or her management, and should be compensated appropriately.
Thankfully, I work at a fractional with no union and, as far as I can tell, no management with the attitude that you have displayed. Please stay away from where I work, and please apologize for your words.

Respectfully, Wacoflyr
 
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Indeed, Bob19 wonders why we need Unions.....

wacoflyr said:
Also, remember that you ain't the boss of me, but I could be the boss of you.
Click to expand...

This is clearly meant to be a threat. I don't like threats. B19, I believe you should retract this statement, and apologize.
You suggest companies would be better off without unions, and then you make the kind of attack that forces pilots to fear for there jobs and organize for self defense. You are willing to discuss these issues with us, claiming that you only want equal time, and then you pull out the hammer that only management has.
What makes this attack far worse, however, is that you would then deny us the equal leverage that a union would bring! What hypocrisy!
Our occupation is under attack from forces beyond any of our control, and we all fear for the well being of our jobs, our families and ourselves. We don't need you to threaten us further.
Remember, when I am at flight level 410 and something goes wrong, management is not the boss. According to federal regulation, the guy (or gal) sitting in the left seat is. That person has both the authority and the responsibility to make all decisions regarding the safe outcome of that flight. The passengers would all agree, that person should be free from worry about threats from his or her management, and should be compensated appropriately.
Thankfully, I work at a fractional with no union and, as far as I can tell, no management with the attitude that you have displayed. Please stay away from where I work, and please apologize for your words.

Respectfully, Wacoflyr[/quote]

Its because of Power Hungry Managers like HIM!


Freedom is Not Free
 
B19 Flyer said:
Also, remember that you ain't the boss of me, but I could be the boss of you.
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Well, I know you're not my boss. And even if you were, I wouldn't fear you. I work at a UNION shop.


Do you want to threaten me too? Bring it on.
 
Club ORD FO said:
who is this "bob" guy at flops anyway?
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Well ... that would be "Bob" Tyler who just happened to cross the line at Eastern. He has been on the mgmt negotiating committee since the beginning, but his actions at the table are comical ... sleeping, avoiding negotiations to play golf, calling in pilots for trumped up "charges", etc.
 
fischman said:
Well, I know you're not my boss. And even if you were, I wouldn't fear you. I work at a UNION shop.


Do you want to threaten me too? Bring it on.
Click to expand...

I know how the grievance process works. It lets pilots that his comrades don't want to fly with keep there jobs even when the union defenders know they should get fired. I've seen more than one pilot survive the process with unsafe tendencies.

As a union pilot, no... you wouldn't fear for your job, but that doesn't mean that safety is enhanced or the traveling public is better off for it.

Last but not least, my statement wasn't a threat. What it did was simply point out to Semore that he can't fire me, he isn't in a position to fire me because he is only a pilot without big-picture decision making ability or experience. However, I am in that position and have made the tough cuts before. By virtue of experience alone, he'll never be the boss of me but I could very well be the boss of him.
 
B19 Flyer said:
However, I am in that position and have made the tough cuts before. By virtue of experience alone, he'll never be the boss of me but I could very well be the boss of him.
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Would you mind expanding on these "tough cuts" which you've had to make. Would just like to examine your thoguht process in these matters. I'd like to know how you arrive at your decisions.
 
nice post.....the problem for you is ANYONE can be in management. It don't require any special kind of training or testing. No one dies when you make a bad decision.
 
brokeflyer said:
nice post.....the problem for you is ANYONE can be in management. It don't require any special kind of training or testing. No one dies when you make a bad decision.
Click to expand...

Very true, but I find that those that complain the most and join unions to bully existing management won't take the responsibility and become management themselves. They can't take the pressure.

And you are wrong about nobody dying when a bad decision is made at the managment level. Most accidents happen as a result of system failures rather than individual failures. That is why not becoming part of the management structure when you deem you could contribute is so detrimental to the entire group.
 
B19,

What does "For Entertainment Only!!!" under your username in your profile mean?

Is this some form of legal hedging by posting your opinions on a message board? More evidence of who you really are...
 

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