737 abort procedures

[firstthird]

I'm having a 'discussion' with some of my SWA brethern about RTO procedures. Question is this, how do most 737 operators do their abort?

In the Navy, ours was like this
1 - AT - disengage
2 - thrust levers - idle
3 - wheel brakes - maximum
4 - thrust reversers - max
5 - speed brakes - verify deployed

at SWA
1 - thrust levers - idle
2 - wheel brakes - max
3 - speed brakes - up
4 - thrust reversers - max

last two steps are the crux, thrust reversers first and let the speed brakes auto-deploy, or do most 737 operators get the speed brakes and then do thrust reversers.

thanks for any answers, not particularly important, just a beer bet type discussion.

 

[Super Monkey]

Continental Procedures:

Autothrottles - Disconnect
Thrust Levers - Idle
Thrust Reversers - Max
Verify Speed Break Lever - Up
(Autobrakes Condition - RTO (Rejected Take Off)

Yeah I believe the 737 speed brakes deploy automatically when your above 80 knots and you initiate the RTO by bringing the thrust levers to idle and crack the reversers, which also commands the autobrakes to go full brake pressure in the RTO position.

With the autobrake system, if it was a brake problem and one truck locked up and the other didn't, that could be a bad thing.

My thoughts and prayers are with the crew. Good job for not making it a worse situation.

 

[Andy Neill]

In any of those procedures, what is the effect of the thrust reversers with one engine out?

 

[BEfly]

Good job for not making it a worse situation.

how could it have been worse

 

[SIU 130]

Out of my Boeing 737 Operations Manual:

"RTO auto brakes are aviable only after the aircraft has exceeded approx. 90 knots "wheel speed" during T/O roll.

FAA base line, balanced field length (all engines RTO and EO takeoff, using brakes and spoilers only, no thrust reverse) decission at V1 stop in remaining runway i.e last brick stop.. go last brlck +35 feet in the air

RTO one engine out,reverse thrust, brakes, spoliers = last brick -220ft

Both engines operating two in reverse, brakes, spoliers = last brick -150 ft....no speedbrakes no reverse = last brick +430 ft (you would depart the RWY @ aprox 60 kts)

Less braking effort, all-engines RTO,3/4 brake pressure + speed brakes and 2 in reverse = last brick +260 ft

****effect of blown tire all engine RTO, brakes,speed brakes, 2 in rev = last brick +290 depart runway @ 45 kts

ALL DATA IS BASED ON BALANCED FIELD LENGTH!!!!!

 

[Dude]

how could it have been worse

Seriously?

People could have DIED! There were no fatalities and from what it looks like, the entire crew is the primary reason.

 

[SuperFLUF]

...

at SWA
1 - thrust levers - idle
2 - wheel brakes - max
3 - speed brakes - up
4 - thrust reversers - max

...

CAL used to do it in that order until we convinced somebody that it might be a better idea to let the automation work to deploy the speed brakes and in turn, get those reversers deployed sooner.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Seriously?

People could have DIED! There were no fatalities and from what it looks like, the entire crew is the primary reason.

Amen to that.


How could it have been worse? So many different ways.

If it had happened on 15L at IAH they might have been in to the hangars,
4L in EWR: the aircraft lined up on the taxiway.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

34R at KDEN I don't think runway length would be a problem. I was thinking more like 30 kt crosswind, speed below VMCG and a failure of the upwind engine. You could run out of rudder really fast and find yourself drifting off the pavement quicker than you can say "your choice of expletive here". If there happens to be a big ravine just off the side of the runway, double fudge. Fortunately everyone lived so the NTSB will get a first hand account of what really happened on this one.

 

[ERfly]

CAL used to do it in that order until we convinced somebody that it might be a better idea to let the automation work to deploy the speed brakes and in turn, get those reversers deployed sooner.

Could this have something to do with the -200s not having automatic spoilers and this is a carry over from that? I thought I heard where you had to manually deploy the spoilers on landing. I know both airlines previously operated the -200.

 

[GuppyWN]

Could this have something to do with the -200s not having automatic spoilers and this is a carry over from that? I thought I heard where you had to manually deploy the spoilers on landing. I know both airlines previously operated the -200.

You got it Toyota. Except Southwest can't seem to get over the fact that the -200 has been gone for 6 years! Heck we just started using autobrakes last year.

Gup

 

[EatinRamen]

I fly the-200ADV and we've got automatic spoilers just like the newer models.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Most of the guys I fly with think they're still on the -200.

"Well on the -200, ya had yada yada would stop on a dime yada yada climb at the barber pole, descend at the barber pole yada yada turn that off, we didn't have that in the -200 yada yada V2 is always 130 yada yada EFF that V-nav."

 

[igneousy2]

Alaska...

1. Thrust Levers Idle/Autothrottle - Disengage
2. Brakes - monitor auto-brake
3. Speed Brake - Verify Full Up​

4. Reverse thrust- as required.

My personal opinion is that reverse should be last as you technically don't need it at all to stop in time. If the last thing you are trained to do is look at the brakes/speed brakes then I can see it becoming a problem if the auto-system fails/is MEL'd and you don't catch the problem until after the reverse is out.

Anyway, probably doesn't matter that much as long as you get everything done.

Later

​

 

[Whataburger]

In any of those procedures, what is the effect of the thrust reversers with one engine out?

1/2 as much as with 2 engines.

 

[Whataburger]

How could it have been worse? So many different ways.

.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2008/1222/20081222_120721_CD22CRASH_GRAPH.pdf
Makes ya wonder.

 

[slaquer5]

Most of the guys I fly with think they're still on the -200.

"Well on the -200, ya had yada yada would stop on a dime yada yada climb at the barber pole, descend at the barber pole yada yada turn that off, we didn't have that in the -200 yada yada V2 is always 130 yada yada EFF that V-nav."

Funny, next time ask how it climbed, about 500 fpm and with the anti ice on a c-150 could out climb it. I use to call the anti- ice switches the anti climb switches on the 200.

 

[Andy Neill]

1/2 as much as with 2 engines.

...and with no problematic adverse yaw?

 

[b707guy]

I use to call the anti- ice switches the anti climb switches on the 200.

I'll guess it still climbed better with the "anti-climb" on than with them off and in icing conditions...

For dinosaur jockeys like me, max brake application comes first in the laundry list of things to do during a rejected takeoff. I presume that in some of those new-fangled jets that RTO braking is activated by pulling the throttles back to idle, and so the throttle reduction has to come first to bring all the other automated stuff into action, but from firstthird's account of SWAs procedures, wouldn't max brake application (second on the list) trip off RTO braking, if you're using it? Or is that step a verification that the auto brakes are engaged and working? Either way, without auto brakes, max braking should come first, or at least simultaneous with throttle reduction to get stopped in the shortest distance.

 

[jimcav]

Even with automatic spoilers you have few seconds between reverser deployment and the unlock process before you can move the levers beyond the first detent. I use that pause to ensure the speedbrake lever is "up",then go back to the reversers.