AirTran pilots considering switching unions

[CopilotDoug]

The ability to recall is a good thing and should be exercised when needed. It is a safeguard to unresponsive union officers. And most of all, it is democratic.

I submit that Recall is not a reflection of low membership participation, but reflection of a broken union structure. To point the finger at the membership is irresponsible and a sure way to increase disinterest.

Is a recall justified? If the membership says so...so be it. That's a democracy, right? The will of the people...period. It can be debated whether or not it was for the "right" or "wrong" reason...but that is inconsequential.

The membership can motivate its officers with participation, guidance, support, and direction. The Right to Recall must also not be taken away nor questioned.

What Recalls actually do is ensure motivated and responsive Union Officers, which will make the Union more effective to the benefit of the membership.

Why does the company care? If the Union is 6 months into a 4 year contract...they're obligation to the employees is the same.

 

[Pinkslip]

Think

I think everyone really needs to look at ALPA as a whole unit and start to look at how they can hurt us more than do us good. Look at the latest seniority list integrations. USAIR and DAL. Both are these integrations were flawed, because ALPA's Constitution and bylaws were never addressed. More hurt than good.

All you guys that have been ALPA before think about all the times they have either done you wrong or not done you at all.

If you are DAL, UAL you might be good to be ALPA, but for Airtran, whom will most likely be consumed, probably not.

Teamster has done well representing the mechanics and with a double Teamsters on the property it is a win win selection. The pilots at Airtran are the bus drivers and pepsi truck drivers.

 

[PCL_128]

Teamsters Meet With AirTran Pilots

Union Doesn't Plan To Pursue Official Relationship

December 10, 2008
(Orlando, Fla.) – Capt. David Bourne, Director of the Teamsters Airline Division, met today with the board of directors of the National Pilots Association, the independent pilots union at AirTran Airways Corp. (NYSE: AAI). The NPA is considering representation options for its 1,600 pilots.

"Given the current volatility of the airline industry, and the tendency toward continued consolidation, it is to everyone's benefit that the pilots at AirTran strengthen their own organization before entertaining any other representational possibilities," Bourne said. "We remain in solidarity with our union brothers and sisters at AirTran, and are ready to assist them in their endeavors. However, we are not planning to pursue a more official relationship at this time."

Founded in 1903, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents more than 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States and Canada. More than 40,000 new members organized to join the Teamsters this year, more than 20 percent of them into the Teamster Airline Division. The Teamsters are the only growing airline union in the country. Their Airline Division represents the full spectrum of classifications within the aviation industry, including more than 300 airline mechanics at AirTran.

 

[CopilotDoug]

it is to everyone's benefit that the pilots at AirTran strengthen their own organization before entertaining any other representational possibilities

Enough said.

 

[Lear70]

The pilots at Airtran are the bus drivers and pepsi truck drivers.

Don't take this personally, but...

Kiss My A$$.

I didn't go to college 4 years, spend tens of thousands for flight lessons, bust my hump for a decade in crap jobs "paying my dues" to become a bus driver.

You can think of yourself like that if you want to. I put my value a bit above someone who can take a couple week course at Truckmasters and go out with a fresh CDL with no higher education and training.

YMMV

 

[Pinkslip]

Don't take this personally, but...

Kiss My A$$.

I didn't go to college 4 years, spend tens of thousands for flight lessons, bust my hump for a decade in crap jobs "paying my dues" to become a bus driver.

You can think of yourself like that if you want to. I put my value a bit above someone who can take a couple week course at Truckmasters and go out with a fresh CDL with no higher education and training.

YMMV

So you would rather have a glorified union like ALPA make you feel good about your "Bus driver" type contract so that you feel like a real airline pilot in the world as it was once felt?

 

[Lear70]

So you would rather have a glorified union like ALPA make you feel good about your "Bus driver" type contract so that you feel like a real airline pilot in the world as it was once felt?

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

I'd rather have ALPA be a real union, too. Let me wish in one hand and...well, you know the rest.

 

[Lear70]

I'd rather have ALPA be a real union, too. Let me wish in one hand and...well, you know the rest.

I didn't say anything about wishing.

I was talking about FIGHTING to make it happen...

Had any experience with that? I have.

 

[Pinkslip]

What???

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

Raise the bar? Since when has ALPA raised a bar? Age 65 not a raise there.
Wages? SCOPE? Nope!

Degraded pay scales over the past 15 years. Yes.
Degraded the profession over the past 15 years. Yes.
Retirement....enough said!

They can't even merge 2 groups through their own Constitution and Bylaws.

ALPA is far from a REAL union. Its a club!

Maybe the guys should look at UAW. That union still upholds their profession!

 

[Lear70]

15 years would encompass the pay raises that USAirways, UAL, and DAL all achieved in 1999/2000. You know, the ones that gave $200k a year plus for SNB CA's and $300k a year plus for LWB CA's? Those pay raises...? Guess those just slipped your mind.

Those were taken away by bankruptcy courts or the VERY REAL threat of 1113(c) bankruptcy hearings by companies in bankruptcy restructuring. NOT by ALPA.

Keep spinning there, Pinkslip. Maybe someone else will drink YOUR koolaid. So far, you haven't offered any concrete reasons against ALPA, just empty rhetoric with no foundation in fact.

Like everyone else who has come on here ranting against ALPA.

 

[Pinkslip]

15 years would encompass the pay raises that USAirways, UAL, and DAL all achieved in 1999/2000. You know, the ones that gave $200k a year plus for SNB CA's and $300k a year plus for LWB CA's? Those pay raises...? Guess those just slipped your mind.

Those were taken away by bankruptcy courts or the VERY REAL threat of 1113(c) bankruptcy hearings by companies in bankruptcy restructuring. NOT by ALPA.

Keep spinning there, Pinkslip. Maybe someone else will drink YOUR koolaid. So far, you haven't offered any concrete reasons against ALPA, just empty rhetoric with no foundation in fact.

Like everyone else who has come on here ranting against ALPA.

So while they reaped the benefits for 2 years they lost the last 13 years overall. Yeah you are right.....yeah!

ALPA produced 100 seat rates that have been raped by the "Regional" flying. Where was ALPA.

Since you got the time there LEAR. Why don't you take a rolling average of ALPA pilot career wages and see where they have gone. Especially in the past 15 years!

With all that said. ALPA has many positive things in the industry. Safety being one of their forefronts of development. But for Airtran guys......I don't think they are the wisest choice.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Where ever ALPA fails, there is sure to be a crowd of ALPA apologists ready with the excuses.

The pro-ALPA rhetoric is just as "empty" as the anti-ALPA rhetoric in that when it comes down to it: Your contracts, pay, benefits, and job security are no more secure under ALPA than any other Union.

If AirTran can't get their OWN boat rowing in the right direction by themselves, no amount of outside help is going to do it for them.

 

[Lear70]

So while they reaped the benefits for 2 years they lost the last 13 years overall. Yeah you are right.....yeah!

ALPA produced 100 seat rates that have been raped by the "Regional" flying. Where was ALPA.

Since you got the time there LEAR. Why don't you take a rolling average of ALPA pilot career wages and see where they have gone. Especially in the past 15 years!

With all that said. ALPA has many positive things in the industry. Safety being one of their forefronts of development. But for Airtran guys......I don't think they are the wisest choice.

OHHHH, I get it now.

So 9/11 was ALPA's fault, too, eh?

As was the decision of multiple bankruptcy judges in 1113(c) filings, right? They went to those judges and said, "Please, will you decimate our contracts? We'd greatly appreciate it."



Obviously neither of you work here or understand our internal politics and company relationship. If you did, this debate might be worth it to debate the specifics of what has happened here in the last several years.

Otherwise,,, you're just not going to get it unless you've had to live it.

p.s. Who said I had the time for anything? I work 21 days a month these days...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Live...to...fight...another...day...

That did wonders for the career.

Otherwise,,, you're just not going to get it unless you've had to live it.

I can agree to that, Lear.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Degraded pay scales over the past 15 years. Yes.
Degraded the profession over the past 15 years. Yes.
Retirement....enough said!

How about the current transfer of flying from Comair to Mesaba? What did ALPA do? Oh...they're getting Comair pilots preferential hiring with Mesaba.

Memo to Comair Pilots from ALPA: You're Welcome

 

[zman]

So you would rather have a glorified union like ALPA make you feel good about your "Bus driver" type contract so that you feel like a real airline pilot in the world as it was once felt?

Obviously with a statement like that you really have no idea what you are talking about. I have friends of mine who are at different Major airlines, most dont even realize that our work rules are better then theirs.

Facts:

Airtran has a 12 hour dutry day ( Most majors dont)

Airtran is the only airline with its style of reserve policy! (The minute your assigned a trip your guranteed all the rights a privledges of a line holder)

Meaning you could fly 66 hours and get paid for 120 hours almost!

My personal pay checks were higher as a first year guy on reserve then friends and family at Continental Airlines and United Airlines on 2nd year pay! (Yes that personally shocked me as well)

Trust me they were as shocked as I was when we were looking at ADP and they saw how much we were bringing in. Till this day most Airtran pilots as well as other Major airline pilots dont even know about specifics in other airlines contracts. Which is probably why our own industry is so fragmented. When friends and family tell their Captains or First officers about my work rules at Airtran they honestly dont believe them. So back to your Bus driver contract comment I suggest you do a little reading before saying something like that. Also read up on ALPA a little more as well while your at it.

 

[gearup5]

Unfortunatley our union (and most line holders for that matter) say that we have to need to give back our reserve rules. I actually had several guys tell me that reserves just are making to much and that is not right. When I tell them they could bid reserve most of them shut up. Reserve sucks and they should be paid accordingly. We do have a lot of good rules in our contract(ie.reserve,12hr duty day) but we still have alot to work on, especially fo pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Live...to...fight...another...day...

That did wonders for the career.

You'd chide your your wife for not fighting the "good fight" if she was raped at knife point...

You have no understanding of how little power unions and labor have in this country.

Provide a critical analysis of PATCO and the APA/45MM fine that nearly put them out of service.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Physical assault is not the best analogy for this scenario.

Switching Unions is reactionary. It is not proactive, progressive, inclusive, collaborative, forward thinking, or win/win.

It just makes the company giddy when they see a disorganized pilot group pulling the plug and trying to hastily reconnect it before the lights go out.

That's how I see it, at least. Why does that sound familiar?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So much for the critical thought about PATCO and the APA fine.....

In addition it seems there is confusion about unions and recall....

 

[Lear70]

It'll be a cold day in hell before I vote to give up our reserve system. It's how reserve SHOULD pay at EVERY airline... they own me for 18+ days a month, I should be compensated accordingly.

 

[belchfire]

IOW, how about staying engaged in your career politics and electing officers on the front end and KEEPING THEM IN CHECK, instead of being apathetic and suddenly demanding recall.....



just saying....

How's that been working for you Rez-0? Your pension still intact? Your payscale still what it was? Your Management still robbing the company blind even after your concessions then asking for more?

just saying...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How's that been working for you Rez-0? Your pension still intact? Your payscale still what it was? Your Management still robbing the company blind even after your concessions then asking for more?

just saying...

It is not working well..... we need to do better....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It is not working well..... we need to do better....

Notice Rez's profile...He went from "fixing ALPA" to "calling out ALPA".....Even ALPA's biggest cheerleader seems to be getting a little frustrated....

 

[CopilotDoug]

So much for the critical thought about PATCO and the APA fine...

What is there to discuss? They both high-light the lack of power Unions have.

In addition it seems there is confusion about unions and recall....

Like the blind guys describing the elephant?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What is there to discuss? They both high-light the lack of power Unions have.

Look, you want to claim that unions that live to fight another day is a weakness, and then disgard said unions such as PATCO that took it to the mat and failed....

If you can't offer thought provoking debate that is fine.... it just seems that your bark is worse that your bite....

 

[scarlet]

ALPA in Atlanta...Who do you think they will care about the most??? DELTA 12,000 pilots money vs. 1700 Airtran's?

QUESTION: If you vote ALPA in right now with our contract out of date. WHAT contract will you fly under while waiting for the company to neg. with the new union? You WILL BE at the company's DISCRETION !!!

You folks that take all these petitions and we want things changed right now=The company is LAUGHING at all of you !!!!!!!!! And most of you do not realize how you are hurting the pilot group. If you would spend more time supporting and volunteering than Bit#hing we all would be better off.

I love the STRIKE prepardness. Being on the street, let me tell you having 15-17 days off and over 60K a year is a blessing. THERE ARE NO JOBS ANYWHERE !! YOU WILL NOT get a JOB!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

QUESTION: If you vote ALPA in right now with our contract out of date. WHAT contract will you fly under while waiting for the company to neg. with the new union? You WILL BE at the company's DISCRETION !!!

Completely false. The agreement carries over to any new union.

 

[twepilot]

hold on message coming over...

"We...have...met the ...enemy...and ..they...are........us."

WTF

RV