AirTran pilots considering switching unions

[CopilotDoug]

The Kleiner and Pilarski study is a joke of a "scientific" study. There was no significant sample size. The two unions you mention, both blue-collar unions in California, were the only unions observed for this "study." No conclusions can be drawn from such a limited sample size. To get any real data, a wide-scale study would be needed.

The truth is, recalls and turnover are usually a bad thing. You need experience in office, not starry-eyed newbies that don't have a clue what they're doing. You should find elected leaders that do a good job, and keep them for the long haul.

The truth is the Union with the higher turnover rate achieved better benefits for its membership. In theory, the "European Model" which, as you described subscribes to stability for Union leadership to gain the necessary wisdom and knowledge for negotiating with the company, would appeal to conventional wisdom. In theory the "American Model" of high leadership turnover would be more volotile and less productive for the membership. Theory doesn't always work well in practice.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You need experience in office, not starry-eyed newbies that don't have a clue what they're doing. You should find elected leaders that do a good job, and keep them for the long haul.

What if that runs on the contrary to the will of the membership? Is it a democracy anymore?

 

[PCL_128]

The truth is the Union with the higher turnover rate achieved better benefits for its membership.

Cause and effect. With such a small sample size (only two locals), you have no way of knowing whether the turnover was the cause of the better results. In fact, it's highly unlikely that it was.

 

[PCL_128]

What if that runs on the contrary to the will of the membership? Is it a democracy anymore?

It's not an either/or proposition. You can find experienced union leaders that also follow the will of the membership.

 

[Regul8r]

disregard

 

[Regul8r]

disregard

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We "recall" our POTUS every four to eight years. The difference is the orderly transition of power.

Same with union elections.

The problem with recall is its a reactive crises management method of dealing with problems.

It is not proactive, progressive, inclusive, collaborative, forward thinking, out of the box thinking and win/win.

Recall most often is a reflection of poor participatory members. Often they have poor situational awareness and come in half cocked ready for recall.

Is a recall justified? Maybe. But with only about 1/3 of pilots even bothering to vote and 5% of pilots participating in LEC meetings... is it safe to say that someone is not really connected and in tune with what is going on?

Can 1/3 of a group determine if a candidate has a better than average chance of not being recalled?

Rather than motivating your union officers with the fear of recall, why not empower them with participation, guidance, support, direction and clarity of expectations?

Because what recall actually does is the work for the companies "labor relations" consultants and lawyers. For example, Ford and Harrison lawyers take three and four day weekends when pilots run recalls.

It just makes the company giddy when they see a disorganized pilot group pulling the plug and trying to hastily reconnect it before the lights go out....

 

[sleepy]

I have been in ALPA and the Teamsters in the past. ALPA is hands down a better union for pilots. All the Teamsters did was take our money and sell us out. With the Teamsters our business agent was a NWA FA. I remember that our Teamster's reps spent a lot of time at meetings and conferences in Vegas.

 

[carl p]

Having been ALPA and in two independents, I would support ALPA in a second.

 

[njcapt]

I have been in ALPA and the Teamsters in the past. ALPA is hands down a better union for pilots. All the Teamsters did was take our money and sell us out. With the Teamsters our business agent was a NWA FA. I remember that our Teamster's reps spent a lot of time at meetings and conferences in Vegas.

My experience was similar. My Teamster agent was a Pepsi truck driver who frequently had closed door meetings with the airline DO, specifically excluding our elected President. I worked at two airlines that had in-house Unions, including AirTran. Two with ALPA. ALPA, while far from perfect, would be a much better choice than the Teamsters or remaining with the NPA.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The ability to recall is a good thing and should be exercised when needed. It is a safeguard to unresponsive union officers. And most of all, it is democratic.

I submit that Recall is not a reflection of low membership participation, but reflection of a broken union structure. To point the finger at the membership is irresponsible and a sure way to increase disinterest.

Is a recall justified? If the membership says so...so be it. That's a democracy, right? The will of the people...period. It can be debated whether or not it was for the "right" or "wrong" reason...but that is inconsequential.

The membership can motivate its officers with participation, guidance, support, and direction. The Right to Recall must also not be taken away nor questioned.

What Recalls actually do is ensure motivated and responsive Union Officers, which will make the Union more effective to the benefit of the membership.

Why does the company care? If the Union is 6 months into a 4 year contract...they're obligation to the employees is the same.

 

[Pinkslip]

Think

I think everyone really needs to look at ALPA as a whole unit and start to look at how they can hurt us more than do us good. Look at the latest seniority list integrations. USAIR and DAL. Both are these integrations were flawed, because ALPA's Constitution and bylaws were never addressed. More hurt than good.

All you guys that have been ALPA before think about all the times they have either done you wrong or not done you at all.

If you are DAL, UAL you might be good to be ALPA, but for Airtran, whom will most likely be consumed, probably not.

Teamster has done well representing the mechanics and with a double Teamsters on the property it is a win win selection. The pilots at Airtran are the bus drivers and pepsi truck drivers.

 

[PCL_128]

Teamsters Meet With AirTran Pilots

Union Doesn't Plan To Pursue Official Relationship

December 10, 2008
(Orlando, Fla.) – Capt. David Bourne, Director of the Teamsters Airline Division, met today with the board of directors of the National Pilots Association, the independent pilots union at AirTran Airways Corp. (NYSE: AAI). The NPA is considering representation options for its 1,600 pilots.

"Given the current volatility of the airline industry, and the tendency toward continued consolidation, it is to everyone's benefit that the pilots at AirTran strengthen their own organization before entertaining any other representational possibilities," Bourne said. "We remain in solidarity with our union brothers and sisters at AirTran, and are ready to assist them in their endeavors. However, we are not planning to pursue a more official relationship at this time."

Founded in 1903, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents more than 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States and Canada. More than 40,000 new members organized to join the Teamsters this year, more than 20 percent of them into the Teamster Airline Division. The Teamsters are the only growing airline union in the country. Their Airline Division represents the full spectrum of classifications within the aviation industry, including more than 300 airline mechanics at AirTran.

 

[CopilotDoug]

it is to everyone's benefit that the pilots at AirTran strengthen their own organization before entertaining any other representational possibilities

Enough said.

 

[Lear70]

The pilots at Airtran are the bus drivers and pepsi truck drivers.

Don't take this personally, but...

Kiss My A$$.

I didn't go to college 4 years, spend tens of thousands for flight lessons, bust my hump for a decade in crap jobs "paying my dues" to become a bus driver.

You can think of yourself like that if you want to. I put my value a bit above someone who can take a couple week course at Truckmasters and go out with a fresh CDL with no higher education and training.

YMMV

 

[Pinkslip]

Don't take this personally, but...

Kiss My A$$.

I didn't go to college 4 years, spend tens of thousands for flight lessons, bust my hump for a decade in crap jobs "paying my dues" to become a bus driver.

You can think of yourself like that if you want to. I put my value a bit above someone who can take a couple week course at Truckmasters and go out with a fresh CDL with no higher education and training.

YMMV

So you would rather have a glorified union like ALPA make you feel good about your "Bus driver" type contract so that you feel like a real airline pilot in the world as it was once felt?

 

[Lear70]

So you would rather have a glorified union like ALPA make you feel good about your "Bus driver" type contract so that you feel like a real airline pilot in the world as it was once felt?

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

I'd rather have ALPA be a real union, too. Let me wish in one hand and...well, you know the rest.

 

[Lear70]

I'd rather have ALPA be a real union, too. Let me wish in one hand and...well, you know the rest.

I didn't say anything about wishing.

I was talking about FIGHTING to make it happen...

Had any experience with that? I have.

 

[Pinkslip]

What???

Nope. I'd rather have a REAL union like ALPA help us get an industry-leading contract so I can enjoy my time with my family and earn what we are worth, helping raise the bar for the rest of the profession in the process.

Raise the bar? Since when has ALPA raised a bar? Age 65 not a raise there.
Wages? SCOPE? Nope!

Degraded pay scales over the past 15 years. Yes.
Degraded the profession over the past 15 years. Yes.
Retirement....enough said!

They can't even merge 2 groups through their own Constitution and Bylaws.

ALPA is far from a REAL union. Its a club!

Maybe the guys should look at UAW. That union still upholds their profession!