What is the Purpose of Airline Pilot Unions?

[CopilotDoug]

No one is denying that ALPA had relevance and met the challenges for a couple decades at the beginning, but what have they done in the last two or three decades.

What's wrong with resting on laurels achieved over 60 years ago?

Armed guards are still show up today at Skywest, don't they?

 

[Turtle21]

Again what do you suggest? ..

Each poster should be allowed no more than one post for every hour of actual aircraft flight time. ALPA slurping counts as two posts.:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Each poster should be allowed no more than one post for every hour of actual aircraft flight time. ALPA slurping counts as two posts.:laugh:

Agreed... quite complex of an issue.... no easy answers...

 

[Turtle21]

Agreed... quite complex of an issue.... no easy answers...

Slurping isn't the answer. But I have to say I am grateful to Prater. If it wasn't for him I'ld still be paying dues to ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I didn't say it was....

 

[Turtle21]

no easy answers...

If pilots refused to join any union that has more than one seniority list there might be a few people smart enough to come up with an answer. Why join a union that fosters divided loyalties?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If pilots refused to join any union that has more than one seniority list there might be a few people smart enough to come up with an answer. Why join a union that fosters divided loyalties?

like I said no easy answers.....

tell us how your "if" would pragmatically work...

 

[cynic]

Ohhh man..... without unions pilots might get laid off willy-nilly, make ridiculous wages like 25K a year to start and end up working all kinds of barely legal schedules without adequate rest and not time at home.

Can you image that?

Due pay your dues because remember, those unions are looking out for you!

 

[Guppiedriver]

Why join a union that fosters divided loyalties?

This is the quandary that 1700 former AWA pilots face today.

 

[CopilotDoug]

This is the quandary that 1700 former AWA pilots face today.

Is USAPA finished evolving as a Union?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the orginal post and question: what is the purpose of unions?

Simply put: representation. In any given area that decisions are made that concern ones interests, representation is fundamental, paramount and elementary.


What are those area's of interest? That are at least two: collective and individual.

The more local the issue the more the issue is individual whereas the more global the issue the more collective the interests can be found.



On the local level, do you want your employment file and flying record being altered and updated without your knowledge and importantly, your consent?

On a global level, do you want changes made in ICAO rules that effect your ability to operate safely and effectively without your consent?

Between the two 'levels' described above there is the significant and important world of representation.


The easy way out is to describe self governing and democratically run unions as defunct, corrupt or value-less. That is simply a justification for apathy, laziness and ignorance. It justifies a citizen or members incompetence in democratic affairs. It allows weak or narcissistic leaders to abuse power and members. An apathetic and ignorant membership allows poor leaders to make poor decisions for individuals and members and enforce those decisions. Apathetic and ignorant members cannot effectively challenge poor leaders.

On the other hand, there are significant changes to decisions made that effect ones life. For example, retirement funds and healthcare. In the past employees simply did not need to worry about retirement funds and healthcare; it was taken care of by the company.

Future generations of American workers will have to become savvy and self governing with 401ks, for example, and health plans.

The point is, self governance will be required.

Why smart, educated and skilled Air Line Pilots point to "some guy" in the crewroom and say "that is the guy to represent us and our billions of dollars of income over our 20+ year careers" and return to their DVRs, second jobs and/or golf games is an amazing phenomenon.

Why do we trust "this guy" who is really nothing but a fellow pilot just like us. Once again it gets back to an "ignorance is bliss" that we can realistically and pragmatically "trust and expect" "this guy" to represent our best interest.

We cannot. Participation is critical.

We cannot elect a couple of guys no better or worse than us and return to our lives, expecting a good return on investment. Our elected leaders need constant monitoring, guidance and support.

Of course this takes more of our personal time, but just like we are seeing in our new culture of "Crises Management" as the norm, it is more effective and cheaper to deal with issues proactively on the front end, under methodical control than to deal with issues as a crises on the back end under stress, panic, increased cost and less net gain.

Is the status quo working? Is minority participation rates in union elections getting the results we want? Only smarter and democratically intelligent members are going to change the status quo to something more better......

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why smart, educated and skilled Air Line Pilots point to "some guy" in the crewroom and say "that is the guy to represent us and our billions of dollars of income over our 20+ year careers" and return to their DVRs, second jobs and/or golf games is an amazing phenomenon.

This is one of the few times I agree with PCL128...as he accurately pointed out: Unions don't control pay and benefits.

The change to a more responsible corporate culture needs to come from the top down. There are companies out there like that (SWA is as close as it gets in the airlines) and these companies are richer for it.

 

[Flopgut]

Read(or re-read) "Flying the Line" part one....That will clarify for you what the purpose of a union is. Unfortunately, at this point ALPA, SWAPA, IPA, NPA, APA, IBT etc have become the silver spoon, over-priveledged, under-qualified, I want mine now, suburban-american flying club.....Very little semblance to a real "Labor" union

I call BS on this one.

The error chain began in the late 70s early 80s when this now senior generation of pilots showed up. Newly hired at a major they were the first to direct seniority based hostlities onto adjacent pilot groups. They started it, and they've never stopped. Most of them have had an all jet career and have NO claim to the discipline of the previous generation. The now very senior primma donnas are the problem, not the junior guys dealing with the sh!t at the bottom.

The role of a union is to do the memberships will. Period. In the extremely rare instance they cannot do that, they absolutely have to manage expectations as to why. It takes a great leader to do that and ALPA has not had one in way too long.

 

[Eagle757shark]

I call BS on this one.

The error chain began in the late 70s early 80s when this now senior generation of pilots showed up. Newly hired at a major they were the first to direct seniority based hostlities onto adjacent pilot groups. They started it, and they've never stopped. Most of them have had an all jet career and have NO claim to the discipline of the previous generation. The now very senior primma donnas are the problem, not the junior guys dealing with the sh!t at the bottom.

The role of a union is to do the memberships will. Period. In the extremely rare instance they cannot do that, they absolutely have to manage expectations as to why. It takes a great leader to do that and ALPA has not had one in way too long.

To start I'm a line holder at my airline. Do you think you could change some of these attitudes and fix some of these problems between the most senior and most junior pilots? What if it were required that all line holders every six months bid one month reserve and all reserve pilots every six months bid a one month line. Would you foster a little more unity and less apathy among the ranks.

Next, what would you do if your union became decertified at your company? Would you be willing to stay on and work as a pilot for that company?

 

[Flopgut]

That is a very good idea on schedule swaps. It would be an eye opener for a lot of the super senior types. Especially where PBS was in use. It would give the morbidly junior a reprieve and something to look forward to.

I've been in two unions that were AFL-CIO and one independent. I've not flown non-union but I don't think not having a union would be a deal breaker. IMHO: it all depends on what you own group is like. ALPA needs to function more like an agent for service and less like a national policy maker insomuch as that's how they seem to be progressing. If ALPA would return to simple representaion then national should have more power.

 

[Freight Dog]

To start I'm a line holder at my airline. Do you think you could change some of these attitudes and fix some of these problems between the most senior and most junior pilots? What if it were required that all line holders every six months bid one month reserve and all reserve pilots every six months bid a one month line. Would you foster a little more unity and less apathy among the ranks.

Next, what would you do if your union became decertified at your company? Would you be willing to stay on and work as a pilot for that company?

Actually, I would do exactly as Emirates do it - rotational schedule where you bid good schedules, mediocre schedules, and then crap schedules.

Seniority system is by far the single biggest obstacle to restoring our profession. When you can address the rationale behind 10,000+ hour experienced airline captains having to start over at literally poverty wages if their airline goes under, you'll be able to address taking it back.

My solution was the completely eliminate seniority-based based pay. B-737 FO should make X... B-737 captain should make Y.... you can retain seniority for travel bennies, even maybe schedule bidding if that's the way we want to retain it. But pay should be kept in line across the board. There is no reason why you have say 2 B-737 FO's - one making $95/hour, and another making $35/hour AT THE SAME AIRLINE.

It's a sad state of affairs that experienced US pilots have to leave the country in order to make a liveable wage if their airline goes under.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The schedule swap is common at International carriers...

For example, and correct if needed, at BA, everyone works Xmas every other year...... Problems is, in the US if we went that route, then we would fear being called socialist.

To be unified, we need to flatten the disparity between the senior pilots with little worry and the new hire with all the worry...

Should there be benefit for longevity and seniority? Of course, but when do we draw the line on how our poorly treated are the new hires.

Regional first year FOs should make 30K first year.
Major first year FO's should make 60K.

And yes the senior guys should pay for it. We have all taken hits over the last 6 years, but that is a different issue from the long standing disparity between new hire pay and senior pilots.

For example, at CAL, a new hire pilot has zero health insurance while fellow CAL pilots do have insurance. Unacceptable...

One of the many reasons we have a unity problem is is because we have a disparity problem!

Excuses like "I was a new hire once, so you can too" or "Juniority is all about paying dues" or "You spend most of time senior, so don't you want what I got when you are senior..." just don't cut it. They are flawed justifications spoken by the seniors.

The senior pilots need to ask themselves, if I get Pan Am'ed, Eastern'ed or TWA'ed, at what pay rate do I want to start over again? 30K or 60K? If 60K sounds better, then it is time to work at getting your first year pay at DAL, CAL, FDX and UAL up to 60K. If 60K is not enough, then get it to 60K then go from there....

One of the fundamentals of unionism is inclusion. Everyone gets to join who is qualified regardless of race, gender, etc.. (and this is not a problem as it was decades ago...)

However, once the negotiations start, the factions or groups practice exclusion on an economic scale. Regardless it is exclusion. And exclusion causes disparity and disunity, which are simple easy to read instructions for management:

1. Preset wedge here.
2. Hammer hard.
3. Divide and conquer.

 

[Freight Dog]

Wow Rez... I can't believe I actually agree with you here... however, I do have one little remark - we ARE ALREADY socialist. What about a union isn't socialist?

 

[DashTrash400]

I actually agree with that last post a lot, Rez. The problem is getting there without the senior guys feeling like everyone else is ganging up on them and making the junior-senior schism even worse and easier for management to exploit.

 

[Freight Dog]

I actually agree with that last post a lot, Rez. The problem is getting there without the senior guys feeling like everyone else is ganging up on them and making the junior-senior schism even worse and easier for management to exploit.

You know, that's the baby boomer generation. They couldn't give two sh*ts about what they leave behind for us in every aspect, not just in aviation.

Frankly, if you eliminate multi-tiered pay scales, you're looking at taking away the management's sole weapon against us - threat of having to start over at the bottom pay all over again.