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No more excuses= up your pay!

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800Dog said:
Back 30 years ago it was closer to 17 times that of the average laborer. Japan, and most of Europe is still in that neighborhood. We have lost our way and are feeling it in the economy and the recent election. The people have finally had enough and we are in store for major changes. Enjoy the ride!
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Also from what I understand, in some other European Countries and Australia, management can't take away ones pension in bankruptcy. The pensions are one of the first things that are protected by law, unlike the archaic anti-labor policies allowed in this country.

And I would still be happy if CEO's compensation was merely 40 times:rolleyes: that of their average labor. 17 times would certainly be nice, but lets not get ahead of our selves. And here's to hoping that Obama's promise of change includes putting some restrictions on these CEO's who have run rampant for far too long. And rebuilding the middle class! Lets hope that it is indeed a sweet ride!
 
relief tube said:
how bout because there's places like Airtrain, Jetblue, Virgin, Spirit, and Allegiant, whose pilots work for peanuts, are because of that the ones setting the bar on fares.

The only competition with good wages sells seats at a relative loss because they're still paying for gas in 1985 dollars.
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that's why scope needs to come first- before anything else.
The reason there are pilots willing to fly at JB/VA/Usair rates are b/c those companies are steps up from the regionals- hence-- this falls back into the laps of the Legacies- who have created these disenfranchised jobs.

This dividing of our careers affects EVERY pilot- corporate to boxes to major to military= it lowers the bar in an environment in which they will never have sufficient leverage to make the necessary gains.
 
As for the rest of you...
It takes years of training to be a pilot as well./ You're attitudes are awful about what you do- And you clearly don't know many who did not make it- or any good pilot that has died in an a/c. We are responsible for a LOT- And a lower amount of people than you think are willing to do this job at all, much less for what the average pilot ACTUALLY earns +the instability and real possibility of starting over.

As for the recession... it's nothing new to any of us... If 50+% paycuts and pensions stolen hasn't equalled a recession- i don't know what does. ... so now this monster created by corporate greed... That should somehow equal workers continuing to take it in the arse how?

I'm worth every penny i've ever been paid in this career and a WHOLE lot more.

I'm sorry you all don't feel the same. Maybe you should do your job more professionally and work a little harder and maybe you would feel the same way.
Could you imagine any exec saying the crap you all just typed out? He!!, i've never seen the average real estate agent say anything like that.
 
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L'il J.Seinfeld said:
You're crazy dude. Wake up and smell the reality. There are thousands of guys who are not in the airlines that could fly the planes just as safely and efficiently as the fat, lazy, 50-something baby boomers doing it now.

Yes our profession takes years of training and a lot of sacrifice. But so does nursing and you won't see RNs making the ridiculous wages we make. Any Capt that thinks he deserves the 300k he makes at UPS/FDX or the 200k at the pax carriers is crazy.

Don't get me wrong--I'll take the wages. I just don't have any illusions about how much I deserve to be paid. First year FO pay should be around 75k and top capt pay should be no more than 150! I'm a 4th year FO and I make a lot more than a lot of doctors!!
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Are you Management?
 
Too many problems......

Its going to take an act of "GOD" to help out our profession. We as a pilot group are willing to eat each other up or cut a friends neck to get "the job". Too many pilots are sitting in the ranks waiting to work for peanuts, just to fly.

Pilots must put pressure on ALPA and its senior heads to start listening to its members! I have a hard time supporting its cause when its top posts pay 300,000-400,000 dollar salaries, when we have thousands of pilots on the streets. Pilots pay and retirement are going down, down, down and I really do not see our leadership addressing these issues.

I am aware we are in bad economic times, but you would think THEY are working on a plan when the airlines start making money (assuming they make money again), and the economy starts picking up again.

Just venting because we have huge issues here to address before I believe pay will go up in our industry.

Just my .02 cents worth........
 
we do have issues... so again... what airlines are where in the neg. process?
who is realistically tackling the scope issue? can any of you see how we have to be humble enough to bring these guys into the hold- or else we will continue to hurt ourselves?
Where is united on the seniority issue?
We either come together or we don't- but i hope everyone on this board is DONE chasing the 'carrot'.
 
pipejockey said:
So are you suggesting that we continue to let our pay slide? The oncoming global depression doesn't seem to be hurting the wages of management, or doctors and lawyers for that matter. Why are we different? Why shouldn't they share in the pain?

People like you and liljerry are pathetic! You are managements wetdream. You people have no respect for yourselves and cave at everything management demands. When will people like you start asking yourselves why you think management deserves the excesses they get all the while demanding more from us for less.
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MBA types are in demand and those with the know how can negotiate their pay. It's all supply and demand. I fly an A-300 now. It's 10 times easier than flying the KC-135 when I was a new aircraft commander with 1000 hours total time.

We get what we can negotiate. WIth the tens of thousands of eligible pilots out there wanting to work I doubt the legacies will ever increase their pay again. ALPA is an absolute joke and I am so glad that we don't have them on property at UPS. You ALPA guys have a lot more to lose with ALPA than they could ever gain for you.
 
L'il J.Seinfeld said:
MBA types are in demand and those with the know how can negotiate their pay. It's all supply and demand. I fly an A-300 now. It's 10 times easier than flying the KC-135 when I was a new aircraft commander with 1000 hours total time.

We get what we can negotiate. WIth the tens of thousands of eligible pilots out there wanting to work I doubt the legacies will ever increase their pay again. ALPA is an absolute joke and I am so glad that we don't have them on property at UPS. You ALPA guys have a lot more to lose with ALPA than they could ever gain for you.
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That is something when a tanker guy like you says something is easier to fly! Aside of that, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. First, you are not paid by how easy your plane is to fly. You are paid for your experience and judgement. A lot of money, lives and your companies existence is at stake each time you lift off. Second, MBA in demand? Right. You can get in line with the other thousands of MBAs standing on the street right now...supply and demand. Last, while ALPA is not perfect and has made mistakes, you once again have no idea what you are talking about. You probably slid right out of the military into UPS. I have seen many of your kind and the utter ignorance is amazing. Maybe you should shut your pie hole and enjoy your great pay. If you don't feel you deserve it, then go become a management pilot and try to take it away from the others.
 
waveflyer said:
For seven years after 9/11 i've seen excuse after excuse - and delay after delay.

I've seen management steal pensions and concessions worth millions to each of us, w/ barely a fight- and line their own pockets.
I've seen senior legacy pilots vote to furlough junior pilots while at the same time outsource their job.

It is time for Legacy carriers to stop cutting the legs out from under this industry- get their pay and work rules back up- and find a meaningful solution to the scope problem.

What progress is going on right now?
Who is working on what?

This is just unacceptable- how long will this pilot recession last?
It is embarrasing. And for many of our peers-= it is an extremely difficult hardship.
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Management reponse will be, kick rocks!
 
although it may be easy, the pay should reflect the massive responsibility that is easily taken for granted....especially by those of us doing it every day.
 
L'il J.Seinfeld said:
You're crazy dude. Wake up and smell the reality. There are thousands of guys who are not in the airlines that could fly the planes just as safely and efficiently as the fat, lazy, 50-something baby boomers doing it now.

Yes our profession takes years of training and a lot of sacrifice. But so does nursing and you won't see RNs making the ridiculous wages we make. Any Capt that thinks he deserves the 300k he makes at UPS/FDX or the 200k at the pax carriers is crazy.

Don't get me wrong--I'll take the wages. I just don't have any illusions about how much I deserve to be paid. First year FO pay should be around 75k and top capt pay should be no more than 150! I'm a 4th year FO and I make a lot more than a lot of doctors!!
Click to expand...

Hmmm....fourth year UPS pilot with military background lecturing about how much Airline Pilots should be paid. Are you low time as well?
You don't have much credibility, but you are an airline manager's wet dream.

Sure it's crazy for a Captain to want $300K. It's crazy right up to the point when the sh!t hits the fan and an experienced crew saves lives and a multi-million dollar airliner.

Jumpjetter said it right.

PS. L'il J.Seinfeld......uggghh...what a disgrace for an awesome screen name.
 
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L'il J.Seinfeld said:
MBA types are in demand and those with the know how can negotiate their pay.
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Are these the same people that have run corporation after corporation into the ground, all the while pocketing millions for themselves. Are these those people with "know how" you speak of? The only "know how" they have is that they know how to screw over their labor and the American people. I suppose that scum sucking, bottom feeding, pile of monkey sh*t, Richard Fold from Lehman Bros. is the kind of MBA with "know how" you speak of huh? He was paid 300 million dollars from 2000 to present fro doing such a fine job over there, then he has the audacity to expect a 20 million dollar severance to compensate him for all his stock options that are now worthless?? How about the peon on the street who had some stock in the company that now ends up with nothing to show for it. I'd love to see that pathetic sorry excuse for a human being, run down like a dog in the street along with all the other crooks who have given the American people the shaft.
 
pipejockey said:
So are you suggesting that we continue to let our pay slide? The oncoming global depression doesn't seem to be hurting the wages of management, or doctors and lawyers for that matter. Why are we different? Why shouldn't they share in the pain?
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Management, doctors, and lawyers aren't union...yet we are.....Why is their pay doing better than ours? Answer that...then we can continue this discussion...

pipejockey said:
People like you and liljerry are pathetic! You are managements wetdream. You people have no respect for yourselves and cave at everything management demands. When will people like you start asking yourselves why you think management deserves the excesses they get all the while demanding more from us for less.
Click to expand...

What do you want ME to do about it? I have a great job with a great schedule....Answer my question above and we can continue with a discussion...or you can act like the typical union crybaby and hurl insults....your choice....
 
waveflyer said:
As for the rest of you...
It takes years of training to be a pilot as well./ You're attitudes are awful about what you do- And you clearly don't know many who did not make it- or any good pilot that has died in an a/c. We are responsible for a LOT- And a lower amount of people than you think are willing to do this job at all, much less for what the average pilot ACTUALLY earns +the instability and real possibility of starting over.
Click to expand...

BS!.....I have FO's who have taken 11 month "crash" courses (no pun intended) to get in the right seat of a 121 cockpit....Many times the captains are having to take the controls during the landing or talk the FO through a visual approach.....It is much easier to become a 121 pilot than a doctor, lawyer, or CEO....fix that and then we can talk....ALPA has yet to do anything about that....

waveflyer said:
As for the recession... it's nothing new to any of us... If 50+% paycuts and pensions stolen hasn't equalled a recession- i don't know what does. ... so now this monster created by corporate greed... That should somehow equal workers continuing to take it in the arse how?
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That's all fine and dandy....but increases costs on companies now will push those companies closer to failure....Go ahead and push yours toward the cliff...You are my competition and I encourage you to go first.....

waveflyer said:
I'm worth every penny i've ever been paid in this career and a WHOLE lot more.

I'm sorry you all don't feel the same. Maybe you should do your job more professionally and work a little harder and maybe you would feel the same way.
Could you imagine any exec saying the crap you all just typed out? He!!, i've never seen the average real estate agent say anything like that.
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Waveflyer.....CEOs, doctors, and lawyers don't have a union....we do....looks to me like the free market without unions is trumping our sorry a$$ union.....

Your worth what you negotiate...We are too easily replaced, have no unity, and cannot transport our seniority....No amount of ALPA chest thumping can trump those realities....Maybe it's time to try something different.....
 
Mamma said:
Thanks for the lesson genius. Once you get out of the regionals you will hopefully be paid for your experience. That's how you get the job.
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Sorry to disappoint I am evil management scum so I get paid rather well already. When I bankrupt your company though you can enjoy taking your vast years of experience back to the right seat and earn $21k a year because you are on the bottom of the list.
 
AC560 said:
Actually you are paid for the longevity of your service. Experience and judgment are not the basis for pay under collective bargaining.
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BINGO...We did it to ourselves....Experience and judgement mean NOTHING in this business and our own union contracts validate that thinking.....

What does a 15 year pilot with 15000 hours of experience get payed his first year at CAL? 30K!....Tell me again about getting paid for experience and judgement?
 
AC560 said:
Sorry to disappoint I am evil management scum so I get paid rather well already. When I bankrupt your company though you can enjoy taking your vast years of experience back to the right seat and earn $21k a year because you are on the bottom of the list.
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Hey everyone, Lorenzo is back! Obviously you are not management at a major airline because lower management lackeys don't get paid squat and the higher paid ones would not waste their time here. If you are management at a little bug-smasher operation as your profile indicates, then I wish you all the luck in bankrupting us...and don't spend all your Christmas bonus at Walmart! Oh, and don't forget your carburetor heat this winter!
 
Joe, lawyers and doctors have the most powerful unions in our country. They are known as the AMA and the ABA. You blame ALPA and I blame those who vote yes for substandard contracts. Personal responsiblity Joe.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Waveflyer.....CEOs, doctors, and lawyers don't have a union....we do....looks to me like the free market without unions is trumping our sorry a$$ union.....
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Screen Actors Guild, Writers Union, all professional sports....what about them? Last I checked the writers held out and got a good contract. The SAG right now is getting ready to strike against the studios who are trying to steal services and what about the strikes in hockey and baseball in recent years? There are many other unions that are doing fine and ones that are hurting. But, you like to pick and chose to make your rather shallow argument.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Management, doctors, and lawyers aren't union...yet we are.....Why is their pay doing better than ours? Answer that...then we can continue this discussion...



What do you want ME to do about it? I have a great job with a great schedule....Answer my question above and we can continue with a discussion...or you can act like the typical union crybaby and hurl insults....your choice....
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Give me a break, you're an ASA pilot! Great job and schedule? You must not be too hard to please. All regionals suck! And mainline just sucks not as much.

So what, doctors and lawyers are not union, whats your point? are you saying if we were not union, we'd be better off? How is that? Being fired at will doesn't sound too nice to me. Management would have a field day.
 
The job is easy- if you're proficient.

I simply think it's amazing that i'm here convincing pilots of their own worth.

Joe=- you're just not that smart. Lawyers and doctors are represented by unions and several associations... their voices are heard. Hell- dairy farmers have representation. Where their career lends itself to free markets- ours does not... look at all the non-union carriers... don't they still operate under a seniority list? Don't they still collectively bargain?

Do you Joe-- really want to compete w/ me in the free market? How quick would you be out of a job, realistically?

I think you take a lot for granted.
 

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