Ford may sell jets

[BoilerUP]

MINI Cooper D (yes, that's Diesel) 80 mpg highway, 60 mpg city!. 1.6L/ 110hp. Topspeed 121 mph.

Is that diesel Mini sold in the US?

Consumer Report has interesting reports on quality. New and used. The big 3 are all in the bottom of the rankings.

I don't trust a f**king word Consumer Reports has to say about automobile "quality" after the hatchet job they did on both the Izuzu Trooper and Suzuki Sidekick back in the 1990s.

 

[EuroWheenie]

Strange, really, how Ford and GM build really shyte cars in the US, and loosing billions in the process, whereas their European arms (Ford and Opel) are building rather nice motors and turning a profit.

Case(s) in point: The Ford Focus is one of the best choices of motor in the C (VW Golf) class. The Ford Mondeo is, according to many, the best choice the D (VW Passat) class - especially if you consider value for money (otherwise the BMW 3, Audi A4 or Merc C are the obvious choices). The Opel Insignia has just been voted Car of the Year in Europe.

I would never, not in a milion years, buy any car from Big 3 produced in the US, but I wouldn't mind buying a Ford made in either the UK or Germany, nor an Opel. In fact, am shopping around for a small run-about for the Mrs, and it'll prolly end up being a Ford Fiesta or Opel Corsa. Does umpteen miles to the gallon (or very few litres per 100km as it's measured over here), are cheap to run insurance and tax wise, cheap to maintain - partly because they hardly ever breaks down. Other options will be something Japanese, but wife doesn't fancy Jap cars.

I'm on my 4th BMW now, having had a brief stint driving an Audi (which, although very nice, I didn't like for it's boring driving qualities), this time it's a 320d Touring. 177bhp, torque in droves, does 142mph and sips diesel at silly rates (6.5L/100KM on average (and I hardly drive it economically!), which translates to roughly 37mpg. 50mpg is easily done on longer motorway stretches if I limit myself to around 110 mph.

 

[metrodriver]

Is that diesel Mini sold in the US?

Off course not. I first heard about it in London. Some cabinet minister was driving it with a chauffeur and was being interviewed by a newspaper because usually these guys get a lot bigger car from the state, but he refused, liked his MINI too much. I couldn't believe it so I looked it up on the MINI website, and that's were above mentioned numbers come from.

I just talked to some German friends that live in Opel territory and the big news there is that they want to be seperated from GM again. They get tired of funding the US losses....

Apparently if a european car doesn't get 40 to 50 mpg it's a piece of junk. I'm amazed at how large the percentage of cars runs on diesel, 60-70 % in some countries. No smoke, no smell, no more bolts-in-a-bucket noise, fast and very efficient. They even have Jeep Cherokee and Chrysler Caravan as a diesel.

 

[LJ45]

maybe, all three should walk instead of fly since they could answers a simple challenge by some idiot politician. simply pathetic !!

 

[keebird]

They should downsize to a Hondajet.

 

[EuroWheenie]

Metro

VW produces a 3-cylinder Polo Bluemotion. It's an oilburner, and it'll return around 70-80 mpg. My BMW is officially a 57mpg car. The 204 bhp, 6-cylinder, 325d is a 48mpg car. I drove one, and you would be hard pressed to tell it's a diesel. You can even get a 286bhp twin-turbo 335d (0-62 in 6.1 seconds), which still returns 42mpg!

I couldn't quite justify the price difference between the 325d and 320d, or rather choosing the 325d would have meant cutting down on options, so I sprung for the 320d and spent the difference on nice extras such as 18 inch rims, leather, stereo and navigation. Still, the 4-cylinder 320d has a very nice engine and, being a common-rail diesel, it runs very smoothly indeed.

As for diesel in Europe, hardly anybody buys anthing but diesel over here. The percentage is nearing 75% on average, in some countries (DE, BE, IT, NL) it's more than 85%. Diesel is cheaper, and you go a lot longer on a litre (or gallon) than using petrol. Diesel also offers a vast torque advantage, and since they rotate at lower rpms, are also less noisy. The purchase price is a bit higher, but that's recuperated if you drive more than around 15K KM (or just short of 10K miles) a year.

 

[metrodriver]

My BMW is officially a 57mpg car. The 204 bhp, 6-cylinder, 325d is a 48mpg car. I drove one, and you would be hard pressed to tell it's a diesel. You can even get a 286bhp twin-turbo 335d (0-62 in 6.1 seconds), which still returns 42mpg! [End quote]

200+ hp from 2.5L @48 mpg
280+ hp from 3.5L @42 mpg
2.0L @ 57 mpg

Wooow, those hp's are numbers that couldn't even be achieved by gasoline engines just a few years ago.
You will still be hardpressed to find those numbers in US build gasoline engines. The MPG numbers are way above what anything in the US can achieve.
The 10+ yr old Geo Metro = Suzuki Swift has become very popular again because of the high fuel prizes. It gets about 50 mpg on a 1L 3 cylinder engine. Now the Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius (hybrid) get between 40 and 60 mpg. The Big 3 are advertising heavily with cars that get barely 30 mpg.

Seeing the numbers on European (diesel) cars and the US I certainly believe there is some kind of conspiracy between the car makers and the oil industry. Oeps, I forgot Bush, Cheney & co came out of the oil business and are still heavily tied to it.
Coming up with plans to drill on the edges of National Parks (derricks will be visible in pictures from famous landmarks in some Utah National Parks if the recently -and somewhat secretly-announced auction of drilling parcels continues) will secure their business and stocks for years to come. Reducing the dependence on foreign oil starts at home with a lot more efficient cars. It also reduces the capacity constraints on refineries. But less production = lower prices = lower profits = lower stock price = not good for Texas oil barrons.

BMW 3-series are very nice cars. It shows that safety, comfort and fuel efficiency can be combined.
It takes a leading government and industry cooperation to bring innovative products to the market. Maybe the public in the US is still a little wary of diesel engines, if there are more cars being offered except the VW Golf / Jetta D, the public perception will change very quick.

The sad shape of the Big 3 is directly contributable to the folks who are now argueing about their use of corporate jets, the wwwaaaaaaaayyyyy overpaid CEO's.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm pretty sure most Euro diesels, although they have good fuel economy, don't meet US emissions standards and that's why they aren't available domestically.

 

[jonjuan]

They should downsize to a Hondajet.

Their wallets wouldn't fit through the door.

 

[EuroWheenie]

Metrodriver

The 335d is actually a 3.0 litre engine, not 3.5. They also make a 330d, which develops around 245hp with a single turbo. The 335d is the same engine, but with twin-turbos.

BMW is making a 123d, same 2.0 litre as in my 320d, but developing 203hp. That's more than 100 hp per litre; a first for diesel engines. Still very frugal, but fast as shyte off a shiny shovel.

BoilerUP

True, at least partially. I belive the 320d will meet emission requirements in the US (or, California to be exact) if fitted with a particle filter. Since you pay tax on cars in Belgium based on a weird mix of horsepower, fuel consumption and emissions, I had the filter fitted to mine. Did add a bit to the cost, but will be recuperated in 4 years time. That's also when the EU will impose emission regulations a tad stricter than what California now has, which means that if I'd neglected to fit the filter the resale value would have taken rather a large hit.

 

[Raskal]

I'm pretty sure most Euro diesels, although they have good fuel economy, don't meet US emissions standards and that's why they aren't available domestically.

They have for some time met 49 state standards (Cali being the odd one out) but now the Germans are all bringing or already have clean diesels that meet all state standards for this model year.

The Jetta TDI is a 50 state car, just won the "Green Car of the Year" title over two hybrids due to better mileage, starts at $21,700 and doesn't use that silly blue-tec system that Merc and BMW are employing.

We had a pre-production version over the summer for a week and averaged 55mpg highway and 40 city. Thing is amazing and has none of the diesel sound or exhaust and tons of torque. Great drive.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the hybrid craze-the technology isn't there and the mileage is often much worse than sticker due to 'real-world' driving. Electric cars are very, very far off for practical use and have absolutely no application in anything but small passenger cars. Look around on the highway, electric simply cannot and will not work for all those trucks that run our economy and yet, idiots in the media continue to assail the big three for not producing enough hybrids...

We have the technology now for clean diesel but thanks to GM's spectacular POS in the 80's (Olds) the American public forever believes that all diesels are terrible. We are once again headed down the wrong path due to politics (ie-the E85 crap), misconceptions and general ignorance. Big surprise.

 

[GIVSP]

Gulfstream200, " Retard Congressman " ? You bring a wealth of knowledge to this board, and I admire that. All I ask is that you refrain from using the word "Retard". Kind of close to home, Thanks

 

[gret]

GIVSP,

Not close to home for me, but I think most of us agree 100%.

 

[BoilerUP]

They have for some time met 49 state standards (Cali being the odd one out) but now the Germans are all bringing or already have clean diesels that meet all state standards for this model year.

I said some Euro diesels don't meet US standards.

The Jetta TDI is a 50 state car, just won the "Green Car of the Year" title over two hybrids due to better mileage, starts at $21,700 and doesn't use that silly blue-tec system that Merc and BMW are employing.

I know a guy that drives an 8-10 year old Jetta TDI...that thing regularly gets over 50mpg on the highway. Other than a slight rumble at start and a somewhat rougher idle than a gasoline car, you'd never know its a diesel.

I'd love for VW to bring their new Jetta diesel hybrid to the states...that thing is the epitome of a modern "fuel miser".

We have the technology now for clean diesel but thanks to GM's spectacular POS in the 80's (Olds) the American public forever believes that all diesels are terrible.

I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

 

[Raskal]

I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

See, that's part of my issue. For the European markets the big three have some fantastic cars-especially on the diesel front, but they won't bring them here in any significant numbers. Instead, it's only hybrids.

As for the changing reputation, it seems like more people are getting it but the average American still thinks "bus" when you say the word diesel. It's too bad because even though the 3-series, VW lineup and a number of Mercedes will have the diesel available the American companies are really the ones who would change public opinion in large numbers.

 

[BushwickBill]

Here is one reason:
MINI Cooper D (yes, that's Diesel) 80 mpg highway, 60 mpg city!. 1.6L/ 110hp. Topspeed 121 mph.
1 million MINI's sold in 6 years. Owned by BMW.

The Toyota Prius doesn't even come close. Anything that Detroit builds is, well, euhh, far behind.

Quality, what's that? Do a search on carcomplaints.com. Do a search on Chrysler. Their 2.7L V6 has a terrible history of seizing up after 60.000 miles. Electrical problems, where to start?

Consumer Report has interesting reports on quality. New and used. The big 3 are all in the bottom of the rankings.

If I buy a car I want something reliable for the $30-50.000 they cost nowaday, not something that gives me a hatefull intimate relationship with a dealer or manufacturer that gives me the run-around.
Example: my wife's Chrysler Sebring Convertable: 6 years old, 6ok miles, 8 major service issues (and a few little ones), all quality related: poor materials, bad design.
My old Toyota, 220k miles: Air flow meter failed at 190k. Only problem I've ever had.

Never ever a Chrysler product again, same goes for Ford and (US) GM. I know I'm not the only one.....

this brought up some interesting things kinda changed the direction of the thread as well.

but i agree with you on american car quality. i drive a lot of rentals. PT cruiser is the worst of the lot. then the taurus then its a gradual improvement up to korean cars. the corrola is a favorite, camrey even better then if you get one of those zippy 6 cyl mazdas your stoked.

i don't agree however that diesel is the end solution maybe if it runs on peanut oil. having spent time in Europe and time in Europe surfing diesel gets in everything. let me put it this way petroleum in the water is bad for animal and human. water is best clean.

im kinda biased i guess i own a corrola. it has the highest highway mileage out there. i kinda dorked out one summer and got into hypermiling. max sidewall pressure with nitrogen from the hangar and conservative driving got me 44mpg. Some people get way better.

i dont want to put you guys off but i was stoked on the high gas prices. no traffic. the drive to work was super mellow. last summer was golden. no kooks at the beach. no big r.v.'s on the coastal road. bike rides this spring and summer were some of the best in terms of traffic out here since i was in high school.

people were walking and taking the bus and riding their bikes around town. in the LA basin i saw a hipster riding a fixed gear bike across town. there was hope for the human race.

since i ride my bike around town and only drive to work: one month i spent 60 bucks on gas when we were in crisis mode. now is spend about twenty.

i would trade the 40 bucks a month in a second for the mellow days of gas approaching 5 bucks a gallon.

and why do i bring this up? the cheap gas right now is going to seriously screw any kind of reform on the part of the big 3 in terms of efficiency.

btw efficiency is the nickname for my car

 

[BushwickBill]

I said some Euro diesels don't meet US standards.



I know a guy that drives an 8-10 year old Jetta TDI...that thing regularly gets over 50mpg on the highway. Other than a slight rumble at start and a somewhat rougher idle than a gasoline car, you'd never know its a diesel.

I'd love for VW to bring their new Jetta diesel hybrid to the states...that thing is the epitome of a modern "fuel miser".



I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

i love your avitar

love that movie

all time favorite

 

[BoilerUP]

but i agree with you on american car quality. i drive a lot of rentals. PT cruiser is the worst of the lot. then the taurus then its a gradual improvement up to korean cars. the corrola is a favorite, camrey even better then if you get one of those zippy 6 cyl mazdas your stoked.

I've got to respectfully disagree with you there...I too drive a BUNCH of rental cars and the biggest POS on the road is anything that says "Kia" on the front of it; Hyundais aren't a hell of a lot better on the lower fleet car end. Its kinda sad when you hope the "compact" on the other end is a Chevy Cobalt with XM Radio...but yes, PT Cruisers are awful.

Nicest rental I've gotten was a brand-new 2008 Chevy Malibu followed by a new Saturn Aura...I was very impressed with the fit/finish, ride quality and fuel economy of both cars.

i dont want to put you guys off but i was stoked on the high gas prices. no traffic. the drive to work was super mellow. last summer was golden. no kooks at the beach. no big r.v.'s on the coastal road. bike rides this spring and summer were some of the best in terms of traffic out here since i was in high school.

You're attitude doesn't put me off, but living in a large metro is substantially different than in a medium-sized midwest town with infrequent and unreliable public transportation. What would fit you in say Chicago, LA/SD/SanFran or NYC simply doesn't work in Columbus, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc.

i would trade the 40 bucks a month in a second for the mellow days of gas approaching 5 bucks a gallon.

Your commute must really suck then...guess I'm jaded, I live 4 minutes from the airport.

and why do i bring this up? the cheap gas right now is going to seriously screw any kind of reform on the part of the big 3 in terms of efficiency.

I seriously doubt it...even ex-'tarded pilots know these fuel/oil prices are only due to the global recession and won't last.

 

[stupidpilot]

Europe heavily subsidizes diesel and gives citizens tax breaks for buying a diesel car. That is one of the many reasons diesels are more popular across the pond. With diesel here much more expensive than regular, along with the extra cost up front, there really is no incentive to buy one. You'd have to drive one around 200k miles just to break even.

 

[metrodriver]

quote from Euroweenie:

Diesel is cheaper, and you go a lot longer on a litre (or gallon) than using petrol. Diesel also offers a vast torque advantage, and since they rotate at lower rpms, are also less noisy. The purchase price is a bit higher, but that's recuperated if you drive more than around 15K KM (or just short of 10K miles) a year.

Stupidpilot: diesel in europe is not heavily subsidized.
The fuel is simply a bit cheaper to make. Road taxes are higher for diesel in some countries, but the vastly higher mpg numbers win back the difference.

Bushwickbill: ANY kind of petroleum product in water is bad