CAL/UAL .....again...and fearful

[Yuppyguppy]

spoken like a tool from aca...I mean independence air.

 

[Furloughed80]

The problem with these pups is that no old timer ever sat down with them over a beer and told them how the industry REALLY works.

Or about how you can change the rules to benefit yourselves at the expense of others.

 

[reepicheep]

I think three things were probably in play that day:
1., realization that UAL was paying way way too much for usair

2., understanding of the likely UAL employee (especially pilot) backlash

3., the political climate at the time was going to be anything but friedly toward the deal

If any part of that deal was "poison", it wasn't UAL.

I was working at the UAL ORD B767 Pilot Crew Desk the day the aborted attempt at merging with USAir was announced in May of 2000.

The UAL stock price tanked by 20+ bucks a share that day and NEVER RECOVERED, not til they declared BK and the stock was worthless.

The USAir stock price climbed around 20 bucks or more that day.

The Street's opinion of the UA/US merger then was the kiss of death, and while one of the dance partners have changed, there is so much poisonous blood between UA Management and the rank and file UA employee, I cant see merging with UA to be any better this time...

Go it alone CAL, you can do it...

 

[whatitdoing?]

Hint: I don't work for ual, my avatar gives a hint. Don't smoke crack. Maybe I will try it in the 2035 when I retire. Imho, while uals fleet is starting to age, my guess is its avg is comparable to the new dal(even if you subtract the dc9s) and aa. Ual has a large short bus fleet for domestic, a large 75/76 fleet and of course the 77 and 744s. Huge posistion in ord, sfo, lax. They have given up on the east coast, however anyone they merge with has that(aa,cal,lcc) Anyone of those carriers will do what the new delta is doing and put the correct aircraft in the correct market. With the right leadership and combo ual could once again be the dominating airline they were in the late 80s and 90s. Now lets look at cal. You have ewr and iah that really count. No real presence out west and a small footprint in asia but an impressive Euro footprint. You need ual and they need you. Just as nwa/dal. As far as planes. Getting them will not be a problem. When needed, boeing, airbus, ge, iflc will get them asap for a carrier the size of ual. Did you notice the as far as the 500hr wonder comment?? As far as ual being dead, don't count on it. Most of the airline world was hoping for cals demise throughout the 80s and 90s due to the drag y'all were on wages and benefits.

Ok, I'll agree with you that CAL does need the Asian market and UAL does need the European market. CAL needs the heavy lift, but it'll be solved whenever the 787 comes around. I know, I know....whenever that happens. UAL has something to offer, I'll agree, but at what cost. That's why CAL left the merger table with UAL....too much risk. If you think Kellner walked away for a reason, you're right. It's a sinking ship and he's a bean counter. He saw huge problems. Granted, now the landscape has changed and we might HAVE to merge. But I'm hoping if that happens, we buy parts and don't absorb the whole damn thing. It's called cherry picking and I think that's the direction that CAL is going. Wait and see I guess.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Heyas Cobra,

You are seeing the end result of ipod generation of pilots.

They've never been told "no", never had a really rough ride in their career, and never had to instruct, sweep the hangar floor or any other character building activity.

They slid right out of whatever puppymill ("Thanks Dad! Can I have keys to the Hummer?") they went to, right into the right seat of an RJ (the jet job they were "owed") and through a quirk of timing, wound up at a major, where, thanks to crappy, post 9/11 workrules, fell right into seats that were typically VERY senior in the past.

Now, ooopsie, it looks like some game changer, which is SO common in this industry, has got them all upset and they can't find their blankie...

The problem with these pups is that no old timer ever sat down with them over a beer and told them how the industry REALLY works.

Well, let me be the first: "Get used to it, son, there are NEVER any 'good times'. Save money, because it's a short ride".

Cobra, I also agree with you about UAL. Great ship, no rudder. With the right crew, it could be a fearsome powerhouse.

Nu

I was waiting to see when "your" generaton would chime in. First of all, most of us (i don't even think I'm the ipod generation) did struggle. Of course, we have those that didn't, but I'm not one of them. I remember sleeping in my car covered in blankets in Burlington Vermont just to get a chance at multi engine time because I didn't have the money to pay for it. My coffee that I had in the car would freeze....it was that cold. I also remember sleeping in KAL cargo bins (those metal ones) in the heated section of the JFK cargo area because the UPS pilots wouldn't let me in their lounge. I'd put down cardboard boxes and foam peanuts just so my legs wouldn't go numb. I remember sweating my arse off flying around Florida after working at a gun shop running up and down stairs with hundreds of pounds of ammo just to have some money to get some time. So spare me your arrogant attitude to the "new" generation. You and your croanies are pathetic and I'm sick of hearing about your "walking through 3ft of snow, uphill, blah blah blah". Get a life.....

 

[whatitdoing?]

Simmer down, junior. There are 500 hr wonders at CAL. Don't get offended by it. It's called the "family" vote. I can think of 2 off the top of my head. Neither had 121 time before starting. One upgraded, for first time in a 737.

As for UAL's structure, why would Larry even entertain a merge/code share/Joint venture, if UAL had nothing to offer. UAL's current state is due to pathetic management. With a proper captain at the helm, it could shine. That's where Larry and team come in. Who cares, you and I can't do anything about it. If it happens, mature integration won't happen with attitudes like that at the table.

As Sonny said, good luck to us all.

Ok, send me their names and I'll do some research. We don't have any 500 hour wonders at CAL. In fact, I haven't flown with many that had less than 6000 hours total time. Misinformation and you're spreading that. If you're right, I'll post a message that your were indeed correct and I'll slide backwards in shame. I look forward to your PM with those names......

About the reason why Kellner talked to Tilton and others about a merger is just that....it's called TALKING. Exploration....whatever. Just because you see me at a car dealership with a salesman in his office, doesn't mean I'm buying a car. Right?

 

[4got2flare]

Have to agree.... I don't know anyone who could get in the interview door without ATP mins and that includes all the Managements/Pilots kids. Kind of needed since all pilots are Typed in there A/C. 737/756/777

(How the thread always falls apart to mines bigger than yours by page 3..... amazing)

 

[whatitdoing?]

It's not about mine is bigger than theirs.....it's about fact and fiction. Tired of the bs that people just spread.

 

[UAL-GSO]

Use your FF miles now I tell my friends...the end of their existance is within a year.

Wow, we have never seen that posted before on FI! (although it is usually spelled correctly)

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

SWA and AirTran.

cliff
ILN

 

[flyipilot]

spoken like a tool from aca...I mean independence air.

LOL..u wish I worked there...I work for UA and cant wait to get out of this hell!

 

[flyipilot]

Wow, we have never seen that posted before on FI! (although it is usually spelled correctly)

Well, usually UA makes money...so, when they make some money, I will spell correctly.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

LOL..u wish I worked there...I work for UA and cant wait to get out of this hell!

I call B.S. on this one.....


Since when did you start working for UAL?

 

[Quimby]

Funny how we don't see anyone trying to merge with SWA....or even join an alliance with them.

you can have your mergers...

 

[tmac3333]

too late to merge now with Obama elected

 

[Shrek]

Doh......

 

[Shrek]

too late to merge now with Obama elected

I will have to remember that statement

Which state did Obama come from again?!..........

United aint goin NOWHERE.......merger here we come. I am not happy about it but trying to be realistic and give Glenn the boot at the same time !!!!!! uke:

 

[Truckdriver]

My prediction by 2011:

DAL/NWA/ALK--- lots of cash from AF/KLM
UAL/CAL/JBLU--- lots of cash from Lufthansa
AA/UAIR---------lots of cash from BA
SWA/AAI--------lots of their own cash
Frontier---------sadly, gone.

 

[Kugelblitz]

60 Replies Later: White Knight Dreams

Well, I asked for one, just one link to any website from an accredited industry source (Wall Street, Aviation Week, The Boyd Group, etc.) and I have yet to see one. What I asked to avoid was a lot of 'informed opinion' - also known as idle speculation- and I got an earful. (Someone had the callousness to say "You heard it here first", well this thread would prove that someone beat that know-it-all to the punch!)

I remember in the months prior to our bankruptcy and purchase by AA, we had a lot of White Knights that were going to save TWA. Most notably amongst those was Richard Branson. He was going to purchase us through some third party holding company (getting around US ownership laws) and then infuse us with capital and jobs and thus save our carrier and make us bigger and better than ever.............if only.

It would seem that Gordon Bethune serves the mythological savior status that Branson at one time served for us at TWA.

This belief will certainly lead to some soothing thoughts in tough times and help one fall asleep at night, but it may not be realistic. I am unaware of Bethune ever mentioning any interest in running an airline again..I don't think he needs the money... and we know where not just Larry Kellner, but the CAL BOD stands on this issue.

Since we are all speculating, I think the most likely outcome at this point is a purchasing of pieces of UAL at a post bankruptcy proceeding. I think the only thing about UAL to CAL of interest is the west coast and Asian operations. I think AA would want a lot of the O'Hare operations for obvious competitive purposes.

No doubt the assets of United would spark a fierce bidding war and I doubt this idea has passed by the majority shareholders of UAL stock. At the end of the day money is what will decide the ultimate disposition of not only UAL but all of us. As time progresses and the idea of United returning to profitability becomes more and more remote, liquidation emerges more and more attractively to the a-moral, conscience lacking business community.

I wish all of you at United the best. Frankly, you can pass all the internal resolutions about seniority integration you want, you are not taking our jobs at CAL (i.e. DOH or national seniority lists). I have been furloughed and know the angst it causes, as I said before in another thread on this similar topic, don't be afraid to leave this industry and try something new (if regrettably the need would arise). I sure wish I did.

Peace.

 

[Shrek]

Well, I asked for one, just one link to any website from an accredited industry source (Wall Street, Aviation Week, The Boyd Group, etc.) and I have yet to see one. What I asked to avoid was a lot of 'informed opinion' - also known as idle speculation- and I got an earful. (Someone had the callousness to say "You heard it here first", well this thread would prove that someone beat that know-it-all to the punch!)

I remember in the months prior to our bankruptcy and purchase by AA, we had a lot of White Knights that were going to save TWA. Most notably amongst those was Richard Branson. He was going to purchase us through some third party holding company (getting around US ownership laws) and then infuse us with capital and jobs and thus save our carrier and make us bigger and better than ever.............if only.

It would seem that Gordon Bethune serves the mythological savior status that Branson at one time served for us at TWA.

This belief will certainly lead to some soothing thoughts in tough times and help one fall asleep at night, but it may not be realistic. I am unaware of Bethune ever mentioning any interest in running an airline again..I don't think he needs the money... and we know where not just Larry Kellner, but the CAL BOD stands on this issue.

Since we are all speculating, I think the most likely outcome at this point is a purchasing of pieces of UAL at a post bankruptcy proceeding. I think the only thing about UAL to CAL of interest is the west coast and Asian operations. I think AA would want a lot of the O'Hare operations for obvious competitive purposes.

No doubt the assets of United would spark a fierce bidding war and I doubt this idea has passed by the majority shareholders of UAL stock. At the end of the day money is what will decide the ultimate disposition of not only UAL but all of us. As time progresses and the idea of United returning to profitability becomes more and more remote, liquidation emerges more and more attractively to the a-moral, conscience lacking business community.

I wish all of you at United the best. Frankly, you can pass all the internal resolutions about seniority integration you want, you are not taking our jobs at CAL (i.e. DOH or national seniority lists). I have been furloughed and know the angst it causes, as I said before in another thread on this similar topic, don't be afraid to leave this industry and try something new (if regrettably the need would arise). I sure wish I did.

Peace.

A well thought out arguement........rare at fi

Aint gunna happen but nice arguement nonetheless.....

Peace.