Buying a type rating

[skipro101]

This is a business decision. So, notwithstanding the philosophical debate about paying for a type rating…

Assuming the following experience….
3000 TT , 1500 Multi Turbine PIC, ATP, BE300 Type, freight and people charter experience (Be99s and KingAir350s (both as captain), and current job is doing contract work in Africa and Saudi Arabia flying King Air 200s.
I am making bank, but it is not a sustainable situation. I’m only doing this for a year as Saudi is not a long term living option.

I have heard two opinions on the feasibility of gaining employment by buying a type rating (I’m not talking about right or wrong here, just about whether it would be likely with my experience).
1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]You need time in type. Without that, its near impossible to find work with a fresh type. OR,
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Certain type ratings are in such demand that if you have them you can find work quite easily (LR60, LR45, CL300, Global, etc), even with 0 time in type.


Given my experience above, how likely is it that I could find work as a First Officer on a CL300 or Global or perhaps Gulfstream aircraft if I was willing to pay for my type?


Please, lets not let this go to a PFT war. I am only interested in hearing from people with real direct experience with this (either as someone who hires pilots or a pilot who has done this).

Thank you for your time and effort in replying. I appreciate it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

This is a business decision. So, notwithstanding the philosophical debate about paying for a type rating…

Assuming the following experience….
3000 TT , 1500 Multi Turbine PIC, ATP, BE300 Type, freight and people charter experience (Be99s and KingAir350s (both as captain), and current job is doing contract work in Africa and Saudi Arabia flying King Air 200s.
I am making bank, but it is not a sustainable situation. I’m only doing this for a year as Saudi is not a long term living option.

I have heard two opinions on the feasibility of gaining employment by buying a type rating (I’m not talking about right or wrong here, just about whether it would be likely with my experience).
1.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]You need time in type. Without that, its near impossible to find work with a fresh type. OR,
2.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Certain type ratings are in such demand that if you have them you can find work quite easily (LR60, LR45, CL300, Global, etc), even with 0 time in type.


Given my experience above, how likely is it that I could find work as a First Officer on a CL300 or Global or perhaps Gulfstream aircraft if I was willing to pay for my type?


Please, lets not let this go to a PFT war. I am only interested in hearing from people with real direct experience with this (either as someone who hires pilots or a pilot who has done this).

Thank you for your time and effort in replying. I appreciate it.

Right about now I cant imagine its a great idea to be dropping 40k+ on a Global Express rating....or any rating for that matter.

You might read about guys here making 3BIL a year flying contract in these type aircraft, but its a very different market than it was even a year ago.

There is no lack of guys with time in type looking for full/part time work.

IMO -- Keep flying that King Air. Keep your money in the bank for awhile and see how the market goes, network like crazy and find a good department to work for.

Good Luck.

 

[skyward80]

If you're interested in a job after buying a type, these guys will hire you after paying for your type. They reimburse you over two years. Plus, you pay their corporate rate at CAE.

I've heard mixed reviews about them.

http://www.worldwidejet.com/

Skyward80

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you're interested in a job after buying a type, these guys will hire you after paying for your type. They reimburse you over two years. Plus, you pay their corporate rate at CAE.

I've heard mixed reviews about them.

http://www.worldwidejet.com/

Skyward80

50K for a GIV SIC in New Jersey plus pay for your own school.

Nothing mixed about that! - Id like to witness that in action. Gets cold in a box this time of year in Jersey....:laugh:

Anyhow, might work for someone!......heres their ad posted on our website recently:



.

Job Title: G-IV SIC
Location: MILLVILLE New Jersey USA
Salary Range: 47k-60k
Email: [email protected]
Job Desc: Worldwide Jet is accepting resumes for a future G-IV SIC position available in Millville, NJ.

You CAN have a flying career and a life too! Our flying schedule is two weeks on and one week off. We offer worldwide travel with extensive training and benefits. Work and fly with one of the best international charter companies in the country and experience our professional work environment. Secure employment, competitive salary and benefits.

Position requires relocation to south New Jersey or Ontario California dependant on company needs.

Candidate must possess a Current Part 135 qualification letter. (If you are qualified but need a Part 135 letter you must pay for initial training at CAE Simuflite. However, we will allow you to train at our corporate rate and will reimburse you for your initial training over a 24 month period as long as your are employed by the Company or until you upgrade to Captain. We will cover travel and hotel expenses during training and give you a prorated $2500/mo. stipend.) All subsequent training is Company covered.

We are seeking motivated individuals with an excellent attitude. Upon upgrade your salary base will be one of the highest in the industry, and in return we are seeking the highest caliber individuals.

Benefits offered:

Major medical
Dental
401K
Salary increases based on six month reviews
Salary range for SIC 48K-60K
Benefits: Competitive
Requirements: Minimum Qualifications:

First class medical certificate
Total fixed wing time: 2,000 hours
Total MEL: 1,500 hours
Total time last 12 months: 200 hours

Please state position you are applying for on your resume. No cover letter required.
Travel:

 

[icefr8dawg]

The worldwide thing does look like good risk vs. reward but didn't they just park a couple GIV's due to fuel costs and a slow charter market? What happens to your training loan at that point. My advice stay with the conventional gig and as always network yourself so when things get better you're the one they call.

 

[StarHustler]

I can certainly appreciate you not wanting to stay over in the great sand dune country but the States are not the place to be right now. Things are pretty bad and I'm not sure if they will get better any time too soon. My position is precarious right now as well, but as long as they are paying me, I am not about to venture out into a hostile pilot market at this time. If your current King Air gig can last at least 12 more months, you may want to revisit this question.

I'm typed in the Hawker and the GIII and prior to the current state of affairs, I saw plenty of Hawker jobs posted on various websites. The beauty of a Hawker type is that it covers all the various Hawkers (HS-125) out there (and please no one try to confuse a Hawker with a BeechJet) with differences training (1 day) except for the 1000. Now that is a valuable type in my experience. Good Luck!

 

[54fighting]

G200-

Is that the new updated company phone. :laugh:

 

[AA717driver]

G200-

Is that the new updated company phone. :laugh:

Hey, times are tough all over. Besides, they were out of those stylish 'bag phones'. TC

 

[54fighting]

Hey, times are tough all over. Besides, they were out of those stylish 'bag phones'. TC

I heard he shot the 'bag phone' down because they would not hold the crocs as well.....

 

[NCherches]

I would not buy a type rating...

The market is hard. A type rating might get you an interview but the times are tough and there are probably already guys in the stack with more time in type and 7000 more hours than you have simply due to lay-offs. I recently had 10+ applicants with 10,000+ hours applying for a 40k/year citation SIC position... Keep your head up bro, but don't take out loans for training!

 

[skipro101]

I wouldn't be taking out loans I could pay cash.


Interesting about the experience of people applying for certain jobs. It says a lot about the economy. Thanks a lot everyone for your thoughts.

 

[Fly91]

This is a business decision. So, notwithstanding the philosophical debate about paying for a type rating…

Assuming the following experience….
3000 TT , 1500 Multi Turbine PIC, ATP, BE300 Type, freight and people charter experience (Be99s and KingAir350s (both as captain), and current job is doing contract work in Africa and Saudi Arabia flying King Air 200s.
I am making bank, but it is not a sustainable situation. I’m only doing this for a year as Saudi is not a long term living option.

I have heard two opinions on the feasibility of gaining employment by buying a type rating (I’m not talking about right or wrong here, just about whether it would be likely with my experience).
1.You need time in type. Without that, its near impossible to find work with a fresh type. OR,
2.Certain type ratings are in such demand that if you have them you can find work quite easily (LR60, LR45, CL300, Global, etc), even with 0 time in type.


Given my experience above, how likely is it that I could find work as a First Officer on a CL300 or Global or perhaps Gulfstream aircraft if I was willing to pay for my type?


Please, lets not let this go to a PFT war. I am only interested in hearing from people with real direct experience with this (either as someone who hires pilots or a pilot who has done this).

Thank you for your time and effort in replying. I appreciate it.

Do it. Alot of my personal friends are having nothing but success in the GV world. They all did the GV/550 types and all the flying they're doing is out of the country, but who cares, its good work and BIG dollars. My friend just got back from his first G550 trip through "International Pilot Services" for a company called Dubai World, the owners of that specific G550. 25-day trip at $1,300 a day...$32,500. It paid for his type rating. He has a little under 100 hours on the G550 and he already has job offers for full-time work. One is $18,000 per month, 30'on'/30'off', and he gets paid for the 30 day off periods too. Its out of Dubai. But he's gonna stick with the contract flying for a year or two.

Do it!

 

[AA717driver]

Fly91--I'm not trying to pi$$ in your cornflakes but your two friends have serious non-corporate resumes. (Over 10,000 hours and buckets of Int'l. experience on 747's as PIC. At least they can find you cheap beer in Almaty...)

skipro--Here's my take: I know the guys Fly91 is friends with. They did go the zero-time route. They are bringing in some serious bucks. They were also sweating their balls off a few months ago with a 'wet' type and silent phone. You never know how the market will go. Bristol-Meyers just closed, spitting out some experienced GV guys. I don't know what Lucent flys...er, I mean, flew but there's some more bodies on the street.

AND, you've got a bunch of airline captains retiring with lots of cash and big dreams--and no qualms about flying for 50% of the going rate for contract guys just to get some beer money.

It is a hard road. I'm not saying don't do it. Fly91 is pointing out how good it can be. I just want to be devil's advocate. I will say that one of the guys he talks to is advising me to hold off from taking the contract route (probably doesn't want the competition... ) to see what happens into next year. I have that luxury--for now.

If you do go for it, let us know and there's some info you could use to ease the transition. Good luck. TC

 

[jaxpilot]

AA717, in response to your avatar and the question above it... Yes, very much so.

 

[Capt1124]

From what I have seen over the years- buying a type rating will only, maybe work when the job market is very good. Then, companies are hiring inexperienced guys anyway, and hiring an inexperienced guy with a type rating saves them sending a guy to school. If the job market is weak, they can probably find a guy with a type rating, time in type, and recent experience.

I haven't been involved in screening resumes for almost a year. Then there were few good applicants. It seems it has changed quite a bit. I myself am going to be unemployed soon and it's not looking good.

 

[skipro101]

I should ad that Dubai is a short hop away from me and I could pound the pavement there fairly easily. I'm not just talking domestic work, I'm also interested in homebased 30/30 type of gigs in UAE.


Interesting thoughts everyone. Thanks for the replies so far.

 

[filejw]

Fly91--I'm not trying to pi$$ in your cornflakes but your two friends have serious non-corporate resumes. (Over 10,000 hours and buckets of Int'l. experience on 747's as PIC. At least they can find you cheap beer in Almaty...)

skipro--Here's my take: I know the guys Fly91 is friends with. They did go the zero-time route. They are bringing in some serious bucks. They were also sweating their balls off a few months ago with a 'wet' type and silent phone. You never know how the market will go. Bristol-Meyers just closed, spitting out some experienced GV guys. I don't know what Lucent flys...er, I mean, flew but there's some more bodies on the street.

AND, you've got a bunch of airline captains retiring with lots of cash and big dreams--and no qualms about flying for 50% of the going rate for contract guys just to get some beer money.

It is a hard road. I'm not saying don't do it. Fly91 is pointing out how good it can be. I just want to be devil's advocate. I will say that one of the guys he talks to is advising me to hold off from taking the contract route (probably doesn't want the competition... ) to see what happens into next year. I have that luxury--for now.

If you do go for it, let us know and there's some info you could use to ease the transition. Good luck. TC

Well all is true except the 50% rate. Most the guys I grew up with in this business aren't going to work for less than book rates so to speak..I've been looking jealously at those GV's for a long time from the window of my 747-4 and can't wait to get a shot.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well all is true except the 50% rate. Most the guys I grew up with in this business aren't going to work for less than book rates so to speak..I've been looking jealously at those GV's for a long time from the window of my 747-4 and can't wait to get a shot.

Oh they do....look at the going contract rates for BBJ/737 pilots.

There are airline guys doing this for $400/day.

:0

 

[heywatchthis]

I'm in a similar situation. G200 PIC doing contract all over the Middle East. I have 10 type ratings and 7000 hours. Pay is good, but the phone doesn't ring as much as I expected.

Should I pay for my recurrent and give it a try for another 12 months?
Contract can be good pay, but you don't get 401K match, you don't get Medical Insurance, you don't get FAA medical, you don't get a cell phone allowance, you don't get paid while your in training, and you don't get paid when your not working. Don't forget you need to put some serious cash away for your taxes and put more away for your next recurrent. It's risky and I prefer not to do it, but I can't find a job in TX right now.

I love this career, but god I hate it!

 

[filejw]

Oh they do....look at the going contract rates for BBJ/737 pilots.

error sorry having pc trouble

 

[Fly91]

Fly91--I'm not trying to pi$$ in your cornflakes but your two friends have serious non-corporate resumes. (Over 10,000 hours and buckets of Int'l. experience on 747's as PIC. At least they can find you cheap beer in Almaty...)

skipro--Here's my take: I know the guys Fly91 is friends with. They did go the zero-time route. They are bringing in some serious bucks. They were also sweating their balls off a few months ago with a 'wet' type and silent phone. You never know how the market will go. Bristol-Meyers just closed, spitting out some experienced GV guys. I don't know what Lucent flys...er, I mean, flew but there's some more bodies on the street.

AND, you've got a bunch of airline captains retiring with lots of cash and big dreams--and no qualms about flying for 50% of the going rate for contract guys just to get some beer money.

It is a hard road. I'm not saying don't do it. Fly91 is pointing out how good it can be. I just want to be devil's advocate. I will say that one of the guys he talks to is advising me to hold off from taking the contract route (probably doesn't want the competition... ) to see what happens into next year. I have that luxury--for now.

If you do go for it, let us know and there's some info you could use to ease the transition. Good luck. TC

With "skipro's" experience I would recommend he get a type on a mid-size jet like Lear 60/Hawker 800, there's a ton of work in the southeast for those. Friends of mine that do contract flying on those can almost work every day if they wanted to. Challenger 601 is good too.

I was gonna do the G550 with S.Y., the first Simuflite class early this year, but I decided against it just because I can't stand the long haul flying anymore. Did it with S.Y. at Southern Air on the 747 and I got sick of it after 2 years.

It still is mainly who you know though, and I know alot of operators down here in the GV/550 world, I'd fly non-stop if I got the GV/550 type. I'll be getting it with the new company I'm with early next year, so I'll have it anyway, I'm sure I'll do some contract from time to time on my off days.

B.H. is doing really well, S.Y. told me today he's doing 1 mon on/1 month off on the 550. Not bad after just a few months out of school.

 

[skipro101]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

 

[brokeflyer]

dont waste your money. Make your employer buy the type rating. Your employer got off easy cause you had to pay for everything else.

 

[Fly91]

dont waste your money. Make your employer buy the type rating. Your employer got off easy cause you had to pay for everything else.

My friend, times are changing. Live in the world you live in or put a bullet in your head. Pilots are not the only people in this country that have to do...what they have to do to get by.

Any pilot or anoyone else that has a chance to make it in his/her career field by paying for their own type-rating or training, and DOES NOTHING, is a class "A" MORON.

Do what you have to do and who gives a F#@^ what all the other pilots in the world think.

Only the strong survive, whatever....blah, blah, blah......

 

[brokeflyer]

My friend, times are changing. Live in the world you live in or put a bullet in your head. Pilots are not the only people in this country that have to do...what they have to do to get by.

Any pilot or anoyone else that has a chance to make it in his/her career field by paying for their own type-rating or training, and DOES NOTHING, is a class "A" MORON.

Do what you have to do and who gives a F#@^ what all the other pilots in the world think.

Only the strong survive, whatever....blah, blah, blah......

Thats exactly why the industry is the way it is.....it starts with buying you type rating to get a job that pays the same amount per year as your type. Next, comes pay for your training and get a salary at 50% of what it cost you to get the job. See where Im going with this? If company wants you to pay for you training (which isnt expensive to them) then it aint worth working there. They aren't very stable financialy.

 

[skipro101]

Uggh, I see it did not take long for this to degrade. The original question was not about paying for a type for a job. It was getting started in the contract business.

Whether or not to buy a type rating to do contract flying is a business question. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Spoolingbyu]

Uggh, I see it did not take long for this to degrade. The original question was not about paying for a type for a job. It was getting started in the contract business.

Whether or not to buy a type rating to do contract flying is a business question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Whether or not to buy is a question that plagues many businesses. What comfort are you really going to get by the replies here? Go for it, Don't go for it, blah blah blah. In all reality they are both right. You could buy your type and get the contract you want and the next guy with the same qualifications could be left with a 'wet' type and nothing to show for it. Though there is a wealth of information available here, I believe this particular question is not answered as well by those on a message board, as it is by yourself.

How risk-averse are you? Ask yourself that question. Are you more apt to high-risk, high-return? Are you maxing out your investments right now? Or do you wake up every morning, crack the financial page and soil yourself? In that case just keep your money in FDIC insured savings.

I hope you get the analogy. Others have pointed out the risks involved and that is the simple answer. You took a risk to get where you are in your aviation career and so far it has paid dividends. Only you will know if you can stomach this investment vehicle's risk to transport you to the next step in your aviation career.

Times are tough for all right now, best of luck and fly safe.

 

[skipro101]

Spoolingbyu,


All very good points. I agree.

However, part of hedging risks is being educated. I was looking for someone with recent experience and was hoping for some insight as to whether or not someone with my experience even has a chance at landing a FO contract job in a large cabin jet given the current market and factoring in that I would already be living in Saudi and willing to move worldwide.

I have those answers (mostly from PMs). In short, it is possible and there are smart risk-averse ways to go about it (such as securing a many-month contract before even buying the type..hard to do but possible).

I still have 6-12 months before I go through with this but its doable and I will probably give it a shot.

 

[Fly91]

Thats exactly why the industry is the way it is.....it starts with buying you type rating to get a job that pays the same amount per year as your type. Next, comes pay for your training and get a salary at 50% of what it cost you to get the job. See where Im going with this? If company wants you to pay for you training (which isnt expensive to them) then it aint worth working there. They aren't very stable financialy.

I think alot of companies are also very tired of low-life pilots getting typed rated, then they leave in 2 months. This happens way too much, and that is the ONLY reason the industry has turned into what it has over time. I don't know any pilot who, if offered, say a Gulfstream V type-rating with a company....but they had to stay there for at least a year, would not do it and stay. But its those pilots like a guy I sort of know who got his Global Express type with Turnberry, then left 3 weeks later for a better job. It kills us all.

Pilots made this happen, not the companies. Companies that can afford a $30 million plane can care less about a $30,000-$50,000 type rating. But when they think they could get completely screwed in the $#^ by that pilot and that money is a waste, well, you can't blame them for not paying anymore.

 

[Fly91]

Spoolingbyu,


All very good points. I agree.

However, part of hedging risks is being educated. I was looking for someone with recent experience and was hoping for some insight as to whether or not someone with my experience even has a chance at landing a FO contract job in a large cabin jet given the current market and factoring in that I would already be living in Saudi and willing to move worldwide.

I have those answers (mostly from PMs). In short, it is possible and there are smart risk-averse ways to go about it (such as securing a many-month contract before even buying the type..hard to do but possible).

I still have 6-12 months before I go through with this but its doable and I will probably give it a shot.

My friend said you contacted him. But remember, he did the G550. If you are willing to do something in the midsize class, you should do alot of work.