Buying a type rating

[Fly91]

Fly91--I'm not trying to pi$$ in your cornflakes but your two friends have serious non-corporate resumes. (Over 10,000 hours and buckets of Int'l. experience on 747's as PIC. At least they can find you cheap beer in Almaty...)

skipro--Here's my take: I know the guys Fly91 is friends with. They did go the zero-time route. They are bringing in some serious bucks. They were also sweating their balls off a few months ago with a 'wet' type and silent phone. You never know how the market will go. Bristol-Meyers just closed, spitting out some experienced GV guys. I don't know what Lucent flys...er, I mean, flew but there's some more bodies on the street.

AND, you've got a bunch of airline captains retiring with lots of cash and big dreams--and no qualms about flying for 50% of the going rate for contract guys just to get some beer money.

It is a hard road. I'm not saying don't do it. Fly91 is pointing out how good it can be. I just want to be devil's advocate. I will say that one of the guys he talks to is advising me to hold off from taking the contract route (probably doesn't want the competition... ) to see what happens into next year. I have that luxury--for now.

If you do go for it, let us know and there's some info you could use to ease the transition. Good luck. TC

With "skipro's" experience I would recommend he get a type on a mid-size jet like Lear 60/Hawker 800, there's a ton of work in the southeast for those. Friends of mine that do contract flying on those can almost work every day if they wanted to. Challenger 601 is good too.

I was gonna do the G550 with S.Y., the first Simuflite class early this year, but I decided against it just because I can't stand the long haul flying anymore. Did it with S.Y. at Southern Air on the 747 and I got sick of it after 2 years.

It still is mainly who you know though, and I know alot of operators down here in the GV/550 world, I'd fly non-stop if I got the GV/550 type. I'll be getting it with the new company I'm with early next year, so I'll have it anyway, I'm sure I'll do some contract from time to time on my off days.

B.H. is doing really well, S.Y. told me today he's doing 1 mon on/1 month off on the 550. Not bad after just a few months out of school.

 

[skipro101]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

 

[brokeflyer]

dont waste your money. Make your employer buy the type rating. Your employer got off easy cause you had to pay for everything else.

 

[Fly91]

dont waste your money. Make your employer buy the type rating. Your employer got off easy cause you had to pay for everything else.

My friend, times are changing. Live in the world you live in or put a bullet in your head. Pilots are not the only people in this country that have to do...what they have to do to get by.

Any pilot or anoyone else that has a chance to make it in his/her career field by paying for their own type-rating or training, and DOES NOTHING, is a class "A" MORON.

Do what you have to do and who gives a F#@^ what all the other pilots in the world think.

Only the strong survive, whatever....blah, blah, blah......

 

[brokeflyer]

My friend, times are changing. Live in the world you live in or put a bullet in your head. Pilots are not the only people in this country that have to do...what they have to do to get by.

Any pilot or anoyone else that has a chance to make it in his/her career field by paying for their own type-rating or training, and DOES NOTHING, is a class "A" MORON.

Do what you have to do and who gives a F#@^ what all the other pilots in the world think.

Only the strong survive, whatever....blah, blah, blah......

Thats exactly why the industry is the way it is.....it starts with buying you type rating to get a job that pays the same amount per year as your type. Next, comes pay for your training and get a salary at 50% of what it cost you to get the job. See where Im going with this? If company wants you to pay for you training (which isnt expensive to them) then it aint worth working there. They aren't very stable financialy.

 

[skipro101]

Uggh, I see it did not take long for this to degrade. The original question was not about paying for a type for a job. It was getting started in the contract business.

Whether or not to buy a type rating to do contract flying is a business question. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Spoolingbyu]

Uggh, I see it did not take long for this to degrade. The original question was not about paying for a type for a job. It was getting started in the contract business.

Whether or not to buy a type rating to do contract flying is a business question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Whether or not to buy is a question that plagues many businesses. What comfort are you really going to get by the replies here? Go for it, Don't go for it, blah blah blah. In all reality they are both right. You could buy your type and get the contract you want and the next guy with the same qualifications could be left with a 'wet' type and nothing to show for it. Though there is a wealth of information available here, I believe this particular question is not answered as well by those on a message board, as it is by yourself.

How risk-averse are you? Ask yourself that question. Are you more apt to high-risk, high-return? Are you maxing out your investments right now? Or do you wake up every morning, crack the financial page and soil yourself? In that case just keep your money in FDIC insured savings.

I hope you get the analogy. Others have pointed out the risks involved and that is the simple answer. You took a risk to get where you are in your aviation career and so far it has paid dividends. Only you will know if you can stomach this investment vehicle's risk to transport you to the next step in your aviation career.

Times are tough for all right now, best of luck and fly safe.

 

[skipro101]

Spoolingbyu,


All very good points. I agree.

However, part of hedging risks is being educated. I was looking for someone with recent experience and was hoping for some insight as to whether or not someone with my experience even has a chance at landing a FO contract job in a large cabin jet given the current market and factoring in that I would already be living in Saudi and willing to move worldwide.

I have those answers (mostly from PMs). In short, it is possible and there are smart risk-averse ways to go about it (such as securing a many-month contract before even buying the type..hard to do but possible).

I still have 6-12 months before I go through with this but its doable and I will probably give it a shot.

 

[Fly91]

Thats exactly why the industry is the way it is.....it starts with buying you type rating to get a job that pays the same amount per year as your type. Next, comes pay for your training and get a salary at 50% of what it cost you to get the job. See where Im going with this? If company wants you to pay for you training (which isnt expensive to them) then it aint worth working there. They aren't very stable financialy.

I think alot of companies are also very tired of low-life pilots getting typed rated, then they leave in 2 months. This happens way too much, and that is the ONLY reason the industry has turned into what it has over time. I don't know any pilot who, if offered, say a Gulfstream V type-rating with a company....but they had to stay there for at least a year, would not do it and stay. But its those pilots like a guy I sort of know who got his Global Express type with Turnberry, then left 3 weeks later for a better job. It kills us all.

Pilots made this happen, not the companies. Companies that can afford a $30 million plane can care less about a $30,000-$50,000 type rating. But when they think they could get completely screwed in the $#^ by that pilot and that money is a waste, well, you can't blame them for not paying anymore.

 

[Fly91]

Spoolingbyu,


All very good points. I agree.

However, part of hedging risks is being educated. I was looking for someone with recent experience and was hoping for some insight as to whether or not someone with my experience even has a chance at landing a FO contract job in a large cabin jet given the current market and factoring in that I would already be living in Saudi and willing to move worldwide.

I have those answers (mostly from PMs). In short, it is possible and there are smart risk-averse ways to go about it (such as securing a many-month contract before even buying the type..hard to do but possible).

I still have 6-12 months before I go through with this but its doable and I will probably give it a shot.

My friend said you contacted him. But remember, he did the G550. If you are willing to do something in the midsize class, you should do alot of work.

 

[AA717driver]

Companies who lose people after typing them generally don't pay or have lousy QOL or both.

I didn't go back to AA because it was such a wonderful place to work...TC

 

[brokeflyer]

I think alot of companies are also very tired of low-life pilots getting typed rated, then they leave in 2 months. This happens way too much, and that is the ONLY reason the industry has turned into what it has over time. I don't know any pilot who, if offered, say a Gulfstream V type-rating with a company....but they had to stay there for at least a year, would not do it and stay. But its those pilots like a guy I sort of know who got his Global Express type with Turnberry, then left 3 weeks later for a better job. It kills us all.

Pilots made this happen, not the companies. Companies that can afford a $30 million plane can care less about a $30,000-$50,000 type rating. But when they think they could get completely screwed in the $#^ by that pilot and that money is a waste, well, you can't blame them for not paying anymore.

If they paid the pilot what he's worth they wouldn't have that problem. What does it is low-life managment that pads their pockets for jerking off on the pilots they make pay for training.

we can play these games all night but i got better things to do. You got your golden parachute insurance paid?

 

[skipro101]

Not to beat this any further, but there are pilots who always see greener grass.....

Anyways....Thanks for all the thoughts.

 

[Fly91]

If they paid the pilot what he's worth they wouldn't have that problem. What does it is low-life managment that pads their pockets for jerking off on the pilots they make pay for training.

we can play these games all night but i got better things to do. You got your golden parachute insurance paid?

Then the pilot should not go there and keep looking for a better job. By excepting the alleged low-pay job and get that free type...all the while knowing they are going to leave on them in a couple months....they are the thief pilots that we don't need in the industry. Make a deal and fullfil it, don't leave on them. And most companies that pay a little lower to the pilot that they need to type-rate is because of just that....they need to spend $30,000-$50,000 to type-rating them. Thats a huge cost and needs to be looked at by the pilot as part of his/her pay for that year. If you're happy after a year, re-negotiate your salary. If they liek you, they will pay you more to keep you, rather than have to go throuigh the hiring and possibly type-rating process again, its a gamble each time they do that. They don't want to do that.

Problem is: Alot of pilots want to start at the top and work their way up.

 

[brokeflyer]

having a training contract and paying for your type are 2 diffrent things.

one costs the pilot a ********************load of money....the other just costs him some time.

either way the employer wins.

 

[Fly91]

having a training contract and paying for your type are 2 diffrent things.

I understand that. I'm just saying that pilots complain about companies that don't pay for types at the time they are hired, but we all know that pilots caused this problem by skipping out on companies with free types. I remember just back in 1998, every single company in the southeast anyway, paid for everyones types when they got hired. That party is over.

Not all companies, but a huge % of them now will not pay for initial types anymore. Just the companies that have big dollars and properly run flight departments. Part 91 too, you can forget about ever having a Part 135 operator pay for an initial type at the same time they hire you. You might get lucky and get hired along with them paying for a recurrent, maybe.

 

[StarHustler]

you can forget about ever having a Part 135 operator pay for an initial type at the same time they hire you. You might get lucky and get hired along with them paying for a recurrent, maybe.

Actually, plenty of Part 135 companies will pay for your initial type. My Hawker type was paid for just two years ago by a Charter company but I did submit to a one year 'training contract'. My current company (same owner, different certificate) paid for my GIII type back in May with no contract (only a verbal agreement, which in my case, is even stronger than a written contract). I do agree however, that if a company types you, you should not expect top wages in the first year (you should also not expect crap wages either). After the one year mark however, you should be brought up to industry standards.

 

[Fly91]

Actually, plenty of Part 135 companies will pay for your initial type. My Hawker type was paid for just two years ago by a Charter company but I did submit to a one year 'training contract'. My current company (same owner, different certificate) paid for my GIII type back in May with no contract (only a verbal agreement, which in my case, is even stronger than a written contract). I do agree however, that if a company types you, you should not expect top wages in the first year (you should also not expect crap wages either). After the one year mark however, you should be brought up to industry standards.

Where is that charter company located that typed you with the training contract?

Thing is here in Florida, the Supreme Court made it impossible for a company to go after a pilot who does not fullfil a training contract. They are unenforceable in this state. The company is screwed. Thats why pilots just go ahead and sign them anyway, if they can even find a company around here that'll do it anymore. If a Part 135 company "is smart" and needs a pilot real bad and has found what they think is a good candidate to pay for their initial type at the time of hiring....they give that pilot a personal loan with a promissory note. That is something a company can sue for and collect on immediately by way of wage garnishment or judgement. My friend is a new instructor at Simuflite on the Challeneger 300, he had to sign a personal loan and a promissory note, he has to stay for two years.

And if a pilot does leave right after they get typed at a company, they obviously went to a good job so they can get paid back after they win in court. Its almost non-existent for a charter company to type-rate some guy they don't know at the time of being hired here in Florida. Part 91, different story, but around here you normally cannot get a "good" Part 91 job without an in-house reference.

 

[StarHustler]

Where is that charter company located that typed you with the training contract?

Fair Wind Air Charter out of SUA

 

[Fly91]

Fair Wind Air Charter out of SUA

I know that company. They may have learned that training contracts are worthless by now and probably wouldn't hand out any more type ratings. Especially if they don't know the pilot who is applying. Maybe if they know the guy. Either way, Part 135 companies anywhere in Florida and in most of the country these days, paying for type-ratings for new hires is just about a thing of the past. They would need to be pretty desperate.