604 vs Falcon 900B

[tybone1000]

We have a client who is looking to go from TEB to Madrid on a weekly basis. We are looking at a 604 or a 900B. I know the 604 can make it there but not sure if it can make it back on a regular basis. I've seen different numbers for both the 604 and the 900B. So I'm not sure which numbers are correct. Just curious what the realistic numbers would be compared to the manufacturers. I would love to hear some opinions. Thanks.

 

[flybynightly]

How many pax and what kind of baggage? I'll get you some numbers.

 

[tybone1000]

How many pax and what kind of baggage? I'll get you some numbers.

Usually 1-4 pax and maybe 400lbs of bags.
Thanks for checking.

 

[AIR2MUD]

You're right, no problem eastbound, but westbound is a different story.

We took our 604 to Malaga, a bit southeast of Madrid by about 290 nm. We did it non-stop and probably had enough gas to continue on to Rome, though we would have been low on gas. This was fall, with lower temps coming out of Morristown, two pax, 400 lbs of bags, and as much fuel as we could get onboard.

The problem you may face with a 604 going eastbound once it gets hot out is a lack of runway available out of TEB to top off the jet with your pax load. You might find yourself stopping for gas even going eastbound.

As you probably are aware, westbound you can have the high headwinds with high ISA and God forbid you get stuck below FL360 for some reason. Then you're definately making a tech stop.

Hope this helps a bit. I have no clue about the 900B.

I do know a Global Express can go east or west to Madrid anytime! Talk your client into one of those.

 

[BEfly]

would a 605 be any better? I guess you need some luck getting one of those anytime soon

 

[rice]

would a 605 be any better? I guess you need some luck getting one of those anytime soon

If I remember correctly, the only diff. btwn the 604 and 605 is the avionics.
Anyway here are the numbers for the 900B based on a 0000Z departure tomorrow @ .80m, FL 370 to 410.
Sorry it doesn't format well.

DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: KTEB ---- ----- ------ 19115 46700
TO: LETO 3232 06:21 14892 4223 31808
HOLD: ---- ---- 0104 2015 2208 29793
ALT: LEMD 0020 0006 800 1408 28993
RES: ---- ---- 00:45 1408 0 27585​

 

[tybone1000]

You're right, no problem eastbound, but westbound is a different story.

We took our 604 to Malaga, a bit southeast of Madrid by about 290 nm. We did it non-stop and probably had enough gas to continue on to Rome, though we would have been low on gas. This was fall, with lower temps coming out of Morristown, two pax, 400 lbs of bags, and as much fuel as we could get onboard.

The problem you may face with a 604 going eastbound once it gets hot out is a lack of runway available out of TEB to top off the jet with your pax load. You might find yourself stopping for gas even going eastbound.

As you probably are aware, westbound you can have the high headwinds with high ISA and God forbid you get stuck below FL360 for some reason. Then you're definately making a tech stop.

Hope this helps a bit. I have no clue about the 900B.

I do know a Global Express can go east or west to Madrid anytime! Talk your client into one of those.

Thanks, thats good to know. It seems like in the winter, spring and fall your in pretty good shape, but in the summer its a crapshoot. Thanks for the input.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

or you can launch right into the late 90s and pick up a 900EX.....

here's a Westbound run at .82 - lands with approx 2900lbs - which is fine in a 900.

Falcons are pretty attractive today with fuel prices.

----- NXXXX LEMD→KTEB
Trip Time:7+43 FOB:9+13 Burn:18059 Cruise:M82 FL:380 Dist: 3276

slow to LRC and the thing stays in the air WAY longer than you want to...make it home from Spain everytime.

 

[tybone1000]

If I remember correctly, the only diff. btwn the 604 and 605 is the avionics.
Anyway here are the numbers for the 900B based on a 0000Z departure tomorrow @ .80m, FL 370 to 410.
Sorry it doesn't format well.

DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: KTEB ---- ----- ------ 19115 46700
TO: LETO 3232 06:21 14892 4223 31808
HOLD: ---- ---- 0104 2015 2208 29793
ALT: LEMD 0020 0006 800 1408 28993

RES: ---- ---- 00:45 1408 0 27585​

You are remembering correctly between the 604 and the 605 but it was a good thought. These numbers are great. If you are heading back from LETO to the east coast could you send those numbers as well. If you remember. Thanks.

 

[tybone1000]

or you can launch right into the late 90s and pick up a 900EX.....

here's a Westbound run at .82 - lands with approx 2900lbs - which is fine in a 900.

Falcons are pretty attractive today with fuel prices.

----- NXXXX LEMD→KTEB
Trip Time:7+43 FOB:9+13 Burn:18059 Cruise:M82 FL:380 Dist: 3276

slow to LRC and the thing stays in the air WAY longer than you want to...make it home from Spain everytime.

The EX is very attractive. You figure if your going to spend about 25 mil. whats a few more. Its always nice to see a response from you. You always have good info.

 

[rice]

You are remembering correctly between the 604 and the 605 but it was a good thought. These numbers are great. If you are heading back from LETO to the east coast could you send those numbers as well. If you remember. Thanks.

Not gonna happen in a 900B!!! These numbers are for LRC and leave no room for any "what if's". Get held down for 15 mins or come up against warmer than forcast temps at alt. and your screwed. Landing with 1500 lbs of fuel is WAY to thin for me.
Remember, the reason Dassault came up with the EX is because the B couldn't make Paris-TEB 50% of the time.


DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: LETO ---- ----- ------ 19115 46700
TO: KTEB 3288 08:30 17558 1557 29142
HOLD: ---- ---- 00:13 348 1209 28794
ALTERNATE: ---- ----- ------ ------ ------
RESERVE: ---- ---- 00:45 1209 0 27585

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The EX is very attractive. You figure if your going to spend about 25 mil. whats a few more. Its always nice to see a response from you. You always have good info.

How is the Falcon market now?

Are 900ex's still in the 33mil range?

Crazy. Some were probably bought brand new for less.....

 

[tybone1000]

Not gonna happen in a 900B!!! These numbers are for LRC and leave no room for any "what if's". Get held down for 15 mins or come up against warmer than forcast temps at alt. and your screwed. Landing with 1500 lbs of fuel is WAY to thin for me.
Remember, the reason Dassault came up with the EX is because the B couldn't make Paris-TEB 50% of the time.


DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: LETO ---- ----- ------ 19115 46700
TO: KTEB 3288 08:30 17558 1557 29142
HOLD: ---- ---- 00:13 348 1209 28794
ALTERNATE: ---- ----- ------ ------ ------
RESERVE: ---- ---- 00:45 1209 0 27585

Well alright. Thats good for us bad for them. I didn't know Paris-TEB was as low as 50%. I thought it was up in the 90s.

 

[tybone1000]

How is the Falcon market now?

Are 900ex's still in the 33mil range?

Crazy. Some were probably bought brand new for less.....

It is. But I'm sure you can get one down around 30.

 

[Lead Sled]

The upcoming winglet mod should be a solution for the 900B when they become available.

 

[rice]

The upcoming winglet mod should be a solution for the 900B when they become available.

Sled,

I spoke to the guy (forgot his name) at API about the winglets. It's gonna be a while before we 'em on 900B's or EX's. Supposedly they've run into a few snags on the 2000's and it's delaying the 900's.
We will be in for a new interior and front end retrofit next year (late summer/early fall) and API told me that we MIGHT have a slim chance of getting winglets but not to count on it.
Seems the 900LX is getting a beefed up wing and Dassault is concerned about the increased loads the winglets may put on the older B/EX wings. Right now the 2000 requires a steel belt to be run from the root to the new tip and the time to install the winglets has taken something like 4-5 weeks.
Also heard the 2000 test aircraft bent the slats a couple months ago. Not sure how reliable that info is but..................

 

[Lead Sled]

Sled,

I spoke to the guy (forgot his name) at API about the winglets. It's gonna be a while before we 'em on 900B's or EX's. Supposedly they've run into a few snags on the 2000's and it's delaying the 900's.
We will be in for a new interior and front end retrofit next year (late summer/early fall) and API told me that we MIGHT have a slim chance of getting winglets but not to count on it.
Seems the 900LX is getting a beefed up wing and Dassault is concerned about the increased loads the winglets may put on the older B/EX wings. Right now the 2000 requires a steel belt to be run from the root to the new tip and the time to install the winglets has taken something like 4-5 weeks.
Also heard the 2000 test aircraft bent the slats a couple months ago. Not sure how reliable that info is but..................

I'm sure that they will run unto a snag or two during the certification process.

I remember reading a quote by Marcell Dassault a few years back - about the time winglets were first coming onto the scene - he said that properly designed wings don't require the use of winglets. He's probably spinning in his grave from the 7X. That being said, winglets will probably give the 900 B/C 200nm to 300 nm more range - not a bad deal at today's fuel prices.

LS

 

[2EASYPilot]

Sled,

I spoke to the guy (forgot his name) at API about the winglets. It's gonna be a while before we 'em on 900B's or EX's. Supposedly they've run into a few snags on the 2000's and it's delaying the 900's.
We will be in for a new interior and front end retrofit next year (late summer/early fall) and API told me that we MIGHT have a slim chance of getting winglets but not to count on it.
Seems the 900LX is getting a beefed up wing and Dassault is concerned about the increased loads the winglets may put on the older B/EX wings. Right now the 2000 requires a steel belt to be run from the root to the new tip and the time to install the winglets has taken something like 4-5 weeks.
Also heard the 2000 test aircraft bent the slats a couple months ago. Not sure how reliable that info is but..................

All true according to inside sourses.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I remember reading a quote by Marcell Dassault a few years back - about the time winglets were first coming onto the scene - he said that properly designed wings don't require the use of winglets. He's probably spinning in his grave from the 7X. That being said, winglets will probably give the 900 B/C 200nm to 300 nm more range - not a bad deal at today's fuel prices.

LS

Well, the 7X wing is nothing like any other Falcon wing....and the winglets may actually do something...

Id NOT suspect the same out of the 900 wing.....

Just what I have heard.

 

[TransMach]

604 vs DA900B

You should consider the GIV-SP. No reason to look at eastbound trip time/fuel. If you can do it westbound you're in.

December historical wind model, M80 cruise, trip time is 08+01 and burn is 24,877. Fuel over destination is 4,123, having allowed for 500 pounds burn in start-up, APU and taxi. 4,123 is pleanty to take you to a Cat III runway and the airplane can carry about 1900 pounds of payload with full fuel of 29,500.

1300 serial number vintage are selling for 22-25 mil.

TransMach