UPS sees FDX/USPS deal as Antitrust

[bukakke]

the department of justice is waiting for you to sign the deal also

 

[Browntothebone]

the department of justice is waiting for you to sign the deal also

I'm sure UPS' lawyers are shaking in their shoes too.

 

[AV80R]

... On an international scale, with the weak dollar, in many cases we as a country are beginning to become the cheap labor. Not as cheap as the Mexican you quote, but given efficiencies and productivity, quite competitive on the world stage.

Bingo!

Volkswagen Waltzes Into Tennessee
By David Kiley

Volkswagen has selected Chattanooga as the site for a new U.S. assembly plant. Tennessee, the home of Jack Daniel's, beat out Alabama and Michigan for the investment and jobs that go along with it.

Volkswagen needs a plant stateside to combat the devastating effect of the weak U.S. dollar on its profits. The German automaker is currently forced to import all of the vehicles it sells in the U.S. -- the primary reason its American operation has been averaging losses of $1 billion a year since 2004. Even vehicles made at VW's Mexican plants have been a drag on earnings because those cars have too many euro-denominated parts.

In an interview with BusinessWeek earlier this year, Volkswagen of America Chief Executive Stefan Jacoby said manufacturing in the U.S. is an imperative to staying viable. "The U.S. dollar, we think, could stay quite weak against the euro for some time, so we must build a big percentage of our vehicles here rather than rely on imports," Jacoby said...

 

[shooter]

How is DHL shifting contractors to UPS being sold out to lower wage labor? If anything, pilot labor costs go up and probably teamster sorter costs will as well. What goes don is the cost of inneficent infrastructure.

On an international scale, with the weak dollar, in many cases we as a country are beginning to become the cheap labor. Not as cheap as the Mexican you quote, but given efficiencies and productivity, quite competitive on the world stage.

It's not. When I was speaking about lower wage labor problems wreaking havoc in the American job market I was referring to all of the manufacturing that has left this country for China, tech jobs to India etc.etc.etc. DHL has is 5 years into the Airborne Express purchase this August. How in 5 years can a foreign company be so mismanaged to destroy the customer base set up for over 25 years?

My rant may have started with DHL, but really has to do with foreign companies being allowed to buy up America and be able to destroy us from the inside. One American job at a time and one American company at a time.

 

[shooter]

Bingo!

Volkswagen Waltzes Into Tennessee
By David Kiley

Volkswagen has selected Chattanooga as the site for a new U.S. assembly plant. Tennessee, the home of Jack Daniel's, beat out Alabama and Michigan for the investment and jobs that go along with it.

Volkswagen needs a plant stateside to combat the devastating effect of the weak U.S. dollar on its profits. The German automaker is currently forced to import all of the vehicles it sells in the U.S. -- the primary reason its American operation has been averaging losses of $1 billion a year since 2004. Even vehicles made at VW's Mexican plants have been a drag on earnings because those cars have too many euro-denominated parts.

In an interview with BusinessWeek earlier this year, Volkswagen of America Chief Executive Stefan Jacoby said manufacturing in the U.S. is an imperative to staying viable. "The U.S. dollar, we think, could stay quite weak against the euro for some time, so we must build a big percentage of our vehicles here rather than rely on imports," Jacoby said...

Wait a minute....VW has been losing $1 billion a year since 2004 and to stop the losses they put money into and build their operation here? While the weak dollar completely bites, they restructure to build in the US? This is from a German company? Why don't they just come up with some pin headed idea like ship all the parts in and have Ford put it together for them?

 

[AV80R]

... My rant may have started with DHL, but really has to do with foreign companies being allowed to buy up America and be able to destroy us from the inside. One American job at a time and one American company at a time.

I'm gonna exclude DHL from this discussion because that's a different animal in itself but what is your solution? - a Great Wall of America? Or is it all NAFTA's fault? I mean no US jobs left the US prior to NAFTA, right?

So if we follow your advice, whatever plan you come up with, will we then force out Toyota, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Nissan, etc from the US? I mean those companies destroy Japanese and German jobs, one Japanese or German job at a time for the sake of American jobs, that's just not right, or is it?

 

[shooter]

I'm gonna exclude DHL from this discussion because that's a different animal in itself but what is your solution? - a Great Wall of America? Or is it all NAFTA's fault? I mean no US jobs left the US prior to NAFTA, right?

So if we follow your advice, whatever plan you come up with, will we then force out Toyota, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Nissan, etc from the US? I mean those companies destroy Japanese and German jobs, one Japanese or German job at a time for the sake of American jobs, that's just not right, or is it?

That's close. Our free trade agreements are not free. They come at a cost to America because they are not evenly distributed. If our free trade agreements were not as one-sided as many of them are, we would have true free trade. But they are one sided against American companies. Some of our politicians know this and have tried to even the playing field. As long as we give corporations a pass to go outside, our country will suffer. THAT bit of my rant has nothing to with DHL but our trade policy, which is anti-American.

 

[AV80R]

Wait a minute....VW has been losing $1 billion a year since 2004 and to stop the losses they put money into and build their operation here? While the weak dollar completely bites, they restructure to build in the US? This is from a German company? Why don't they just come up with some pin headed idea like ship all the parts in and have Ford put it together for them?

Hmm, you need to read that article again.

VW has been losing money in the US because and not despite of the weak dollar. Think of it this way, they're building the cars in Germany paying salaries in strong (expensive) euros but selling the same cars in the US for weak (cheap) dollars.

The solution? Now they'll be building those cars in the 'local' market to offset any currency fluctuation - paying salaries in weak dollars however, they'll be getting paid in the same weak dollars - Verstehen Sie?

 

[shooter]

Hmm, you need to read that article again.

VW has been losing money in the US because and not despite of the weak dollar. Think of it this way, they're building the cars in Germany paying salaries in strong (expensive) euros but selling the same cars in the US for weak (cheap) dollars.

The solution? Now they'll be building those cars in the 'local' market to offset any currency fluctuation - paying salaries in weak dollars however, they'll be getting paid in the same weak dollars - Verstehen Sie?

No, you need to read it again. VW has been producing those cars in Mexico for years. As bad as our dollar is, it is still stronger than the Peso.....for now. Unles that TN plant will produce its own parts, they will still have the same costs for parts production as the Mexico plants have.

 

[AV80R]

That's close. Our free trade agreements are not free. They come at a cost to America because they are not evenly distributed. If our free trade agreements were not as one-sided as many of them are, we would have true free trade. But they are one sided against American companies. Some of our politicians know this and have tried to even the playing field. As long as we give corporations a pass to go outside, our country will suffer. THAT bit of my rant has nothing to with DHL but our trade policy, which is anti-American.

That's funny because if you were to discuss this with a bunch of Europeans (born in Europe myself) they'd tell you the exact opposite is true. The Europeans would say that when competing against America they can never win because their costs are so much higher - they’re probably right. Think about it - they all have 5-6 weeks government/taxes paid vacation, semi-socialized health care (taxes), etc, etc. When it comes to competition very few countries have a chance to even come close to our competitive edge.

What you're seeing now is a supply & demand situation where the weak dollar brings us some jobs from some countries while the even weaker, although strengthening, Chinese Yuan, South Korean Won, etc, etc take away some other jobs from us.

Nothing new, has been going on for hundreds of years and will be going on for thousands of years. I'm not saying all trade pacts are totally fair and some need improvements on both sides but it's very farfetched to claim that our trade policy is anti-American. Just my worthless ½¢ on the matter.

 

[AV80R]

No, you need to read it again. VW has been producing those cars in Mexico for years. As bad as our dollar is, it is still stronger than the Peso.....for now.

Correct, you forgot to factor in the transportation of those cars. US factories will produce for the US market, Mexican factories for the Mexican and central American market...

 

[shooter]

Here, let me try and explain my view a little better without even bringing the Chinese government manipulation of its currency. Most people see these trade agreements as good things. They say things like "I can get my kids Nike's, and toys cheap". The good points of trade, right? I disagree because those American companies that produced shoes are out of business and their workers out on the street. You say thats supply and demand and I say thats is killing our job markets. What good are the cheap Nike's when there are no jobs to get the paycheck and buy those Nike's? You say it will never happen and I say BS, it already is happening. We are being reduced to a two class society in America. So while I don't shop at WalMart anymore, I may be forced to again because the jobs are leaving that provide a wage to buy the better wares. And I'm not alone. This DHL/UPS deal will put thousands on the streets. The better paying jobs in that group will be the pilots of ABX and Astar. Do you think there are enough pilot positions open that will employ all of them? Then kick in all the pilots already unemployed via the shutdowns of ATA, SkyBus, Aloha and others. And now you will say something like that has nothing to do with the free trade agreements we are talking about and I will say BS again. Our weak dollar and economy has everything to do with what I am talking about. Do you think those well paid pilot jobs are easily replaced? Do you think those households that have been buying the better American and European made wares will be able to still buy them or will those households be shopping at WalMart to make the dollar stretch farther. Eeheemm, two class society. It is not always a matter of cutting off your nose to spite your face. These households know the better things in life and change will not come easily. While some will be lucky, others will go into the machine feeding it and its not their fault. If the demand were there for American goods, those wares would flourish and demand would rise and jobs would be created. Based off your argument thats what would happen. Basic supply and demand, right? Well, what if all American companies were bought out by foreign companies and all wares produced over seas, all tech services provided over seas.

I know that is pretty extreme, but not far from where we are right now. Where are the calls of the Unions like back in the 70's and 80's to buy American? They have been busted and no longer. Those jobs victim to supply and demand, right? Now think REAL HARD for a minute and think about what open skies means to your job. I would love to hear the answer to that supply and demand question.

 

[shooter]

Correct, you forgot to factor in the transportation of those cars. US factories will produce for the US market, Mexican factories for the Mexican and central American market...

That sounds right. Wages will be in line with the economy of the country. Like what we had before this globalization toward a world economy. I only wonder if that is what will happen or will we find cheap imports still flooding the market to support the bottom line and executive bonuses?

 

[shooter]

Jobless rate soars to 5.5% in May

Biggest rise in unemployment since 1975

The economy has lost 324,000 jobs this year

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={6B9B2E20-06E8-4FC0-AD5A-3029D5057F89}

Over two decades, the income gap has steadily increased between the richest Americans .... and those at the middle and bottom of the pay scale, whose paychecks buy less.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/13/national/main635936.shtml

Income Disparity Widens to Levels Not Seen Since Great Depresssion

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/13/national/main635936.shtml

 

[AV80R]

Shooter, like I said, I want to keep DHL deal out of my explanation because it’s a very sad subject for thousands of people right now and I don’t want to stir up any anger. As a Brown pilot I’m not a fan of this agreement and have clearly stated my reasons here before, you can look up my old posts if you want so I won’t go there again.

I think you and I agree on many things believe it or not but the big difference is our basic political leanings. I have seen how government involvement can hurt people in the long run, how it can ruin whole families and entire countries despite lofty goals of equal access to this, free that, subsidized something else. There are no perfect countries out there and probably never will be. However, I think the US has got the best thing going out there and I honestly think that we’ll prevail and be an even stronger nation in the future because and not despite of our capitalistic society.

Many of our current trade agreements are not entirely fair and maybe should be adjusted, however in the long term we, as in the US will be the ones flourishing the most.

You say, what happened to the days of 70s and 80s when the unions actively promoted us to buy “American?” Well, it didn’t work then and it won’t work now either. What is American and what is foreign? and what percentage will we call American?

Believe it or not but the Swedish built yet American owned (by Ford) Volvo has more American parts than it has Swedish. So, should we boycott Volvo even though it’s actually more American than it is Swedish? Toyotas that are build in Georgetown, KY have some 35 % parts made in the US and most of all are assembled by the American workers. How would we boycott Toyota? …only certain models? Or maybe only if they’re build outside the US?

The best hope we can have is for the US dollar to regain it’s strength which would lower the oil prices. In Europe they used to be slammed twice when the oil prices went up, first the price of oil (traded in dollar) would go up and secondly the European currencies used to continuously drop in value against the mighty US dollar – guess what, now we’re experiencing what they’ve experienced for generations but in reverse – dollar drops, oil increases, etc. I know there’re numerous reasons to why the oil keeps going up but I believe the weakness of the US dollar is a contributing and a major factor.

In my view we must ensure that all trade agreements we sign are fair because like you said sometimes they are not. You mention the Chinese currency manipulation? Well, remember that we were the ones who pushed the Chinese to embrace economical reforms years and years ago; they did and now we suddenly realize that we unleashed a behemoth competitor. Sure, their currency should be stronger which would help us in the short term, in the long term it’d hurt us though. Do we really want the Chinese to be flush with a very strong currency all of a sudden?

Our best hope for a ‘fair trade’ that’ll benefit us the most in the future is to make sure that the US dollar strengthens again, that we keep our income and our corporate taxes as low as we can to keep ourselves competitive and to make sure that we do not run a budget deficit.

Protectionism (what you’re in effect advocating) will not help us and in fact will hurt us greatly in the long run. Even ‘left-leaning’ economists who subscribe to ‘Keynes’ economics (promote “mixed” - government & private sector - economies) agree that trade is good for us in the long run.

The unemployment link – well where do I start? The fact is that our unemployment rate is way lower than in any of the European countries – a major trading partner (Ireland might be the exception) . Also, it’s been within .5 of where it was during Clinton yet no one thought it was too high at the time?

So if Clinton was in power right now (or Obama) you’d have used the same numbers to show me how incredible good we have it.

We have very different views and will always look for stuff to support our arguments. The very same link you used as a negative I’d have used as a pretty incredible achievement considering the current fuel prices and the fact most of our trading partners have at least 3-4 percent higher unemployment.

You and I could be discussing this for days and probably still think that ‘my’ way of thinking is better. So I’ll give it a rest for now agreeing to disagree with you…

Enjoyed it, take care.

 

[shooter]

Shooter, like I said, I want to keep DHL deal out of my explanation because it’s a very sad subject for thousands of people right now and I don’t want to stir up any anger. As a Brown pilot I’m not a fan of this agreement and have clearly stated my reasons here before, you can look up my old posts if you want so I won’t go there again.

I know you don’t harbor any joy out of the DHL deal. I only use that as a clearer example of trade policy affecting out American work force. Not that the trade policy caused it. (and to not hijack this 100% of this thread) I was not trying to argue that with you, if that is what you thought.

I think you and I agree on many things believe it or not but the big difference is our basic political leanings. I have seen how government involvement can hurt people in the long run, how it can ruin whole families and entire countries despite lofty goals of equal access to this, free that, subsidized something else. There are no perfect countries out there and probably never will be. However, I think the US has got the best thing going out there and I honestly think that we’ll prevail and be an even stronger nation in the future because and not despite of our capitalistic society.

Many of our current trade agreements are not entirely fair and maybe should be adjusted, however in the long term we, as in the US will be the ones flourishing the most.

I am not a fan of government running our companies either. However they are responsible for setting up these trade agreements that do not favor the American worker. They do favor the corporations and their bottom lines and I think they have forgotten that they work for us, the people of America and not the corporate bottom line. And I too think America is the best country in the world and I don’t want corporate greed and lobbyists to destroy a land and government by the people for the people. Nowhere does it say for this corporation over that one.

You say, what happened to the days of 70s and 80s when the unions actively promoted us to buy “American?” Well, it didn’t work then and it won’t work now either. What is American and what is foreign? and what percentage will we call American?

Believe it or not but the Swedish built yet American owned (by Ford) Volvo has more American parts than it has Swedish. So, should we boycott Volvo even though it’s actually more American than it is Swedish? Toyotas that are build in Georgetown, KY have some 35 % parts made in the US and most of all are assembled by the American workers. How would we boycott Toyota? …only certain models? Or maybe only if they’re build outside the US?

Please don’t confuse my hatred toward China trade policy and NAFTA for that which we have had with Europe since our country was founded. (A certain cup of tea excluded ).Big difference in trade agreements there and what I see as a mutual benefit between Europe and America unlike the others.

The best hope we can have is for the US dollar to regain it’s strength which would lower the oil prices. In Europe they used to be slammed twice when the oil prices went up, first the price of oil (traded in dollar) would go up and secondly the European currencies used to continuously drop in value against the mighty US dollar – guess what, now we’re experiencing what they’ve experienced for generations but in reverse – dollar drops, oil increases, etc. I know there’re numerous reasons to why the oil keeps going up but I believe the weakness of the US dollar is a contributing and a major factor.

I agree.

In my view we must ensure that all trade agreements we sign are fair because like you said sometimes they are not. You mention the Chinese currency manipulation? Well, remember that we were the ones who pushed the Chinese to embrace economical reforms years and years ago; they did and now we suddenly realize that we unleashed a behemoth competitor. Sure, their currency should be stronger which would help us in the short term, in the long term it’d hurt us though. Do we really want the Chinese to be flush with a very strong currency all of a sudden?

They do have strong currency. It is being run by our dollar buying all their crap and it hurts us more by them not valuing it as such. Now ask an economist why they want to force the devaluation of their currency which not so coincidentally hurts ours.

Our best hope for a ‘fair trade’ that’ll benefit us the most in the future is to make sure that the US dollar strengthens again, that we keep our income and our corporate taxes as low as we can to keep ourselves competitive and to make sure that we do not run a budget deficit.

Ahhh, I agree here more than you know. You MUST keep corporate taxes low because it just hurts us. Corporations are not tax payers, they are tax collectors. The more you tax a corporation, they just pass that to the consumer. A corporate tax increase is a tax increase on the consumer.

Protectionism (what you’re in effect advocating) will not help us and in fact will hurt us greatly in the long run. Even ‘left-leaning’ economists who subscribe to ‘Keynes’ economics (promote “mixed” - government & private sector - economies) agree that trade is good for us in the long run.

I think you are confusing a trade policy that equally set up to ones that are anti-American. Do you think signing trade agreements should be sided against America are protectionist? That is what thy are supposed to do. Secure the interests of the nations involved. What good does it do to sign an agreement that hurts your industry, workers and economy? Sadly, that is where we find ourselves and that is a national interest to correct, not one of party.

The unemployment link – well where do I start? The fact is that our unemployment rate is way lower than in any of the European countries – a major trading partner (Ireland might be the exception) . Also, it’s been within .5 of where it was during Clinton yet no one thought it was too high at the time?

I think you are still confusing the USA/EU trade agreements with those I have a real problem with. Europe has been seeing many of the same problems as the US. And it is result of bad agreements with China to start, and corporations free ability to use cheap foreign labor without regard. There is no need for them to provide the securities our laws provide such as wage, safety, and welfare.

So if Clinton was in power right now (or Obama) you’d have used the same numbers to show me how incredible good we have it.

Clinton was the one that signed NAFTA.

We have very different views and will always look for stuff to support our arguments. The very same link you used as a negative I’d have used as a pretty incredible achievement considering the current fuel prices and the fact most of our trading partners have at least 3-4 percent higher unemployment.

You and I could be discussing this for days and probably still think that ‘my’ way of thinking is better. So I’ll give it a rest for now agreeing to disagree with you…

Enjoyed it, take care.

I agree that we seem to disagree. But I will not stop preaching what I believe in. I always enjoy talking and debating differing views. :beer:

And to everyone…..sorry for the hijack.

 

[AV80R]

They do have strong currency. It is being run by our dollar buying all their crap and it hurts us more by them not valuing it as such. Now ask an economist why they want to force the devaluation of their currency which not so coincidentally hurts ours.


Damn it, I’ll probably be late for my flight now but I had to come back to say - huh?

I'm not sure what you mean by "they (China) have a strong currency?"

China was until a little more than a year ago pegged to the dollar (Hong Kong still is). Now they use a basket of currencies and the Yuan has strengthened toward the dollar some 15% since de-pegging. Most economists agree that it’s still 25-45% undervalued to where the Chinese purchasing power really is today.

Right now it costs just under 7 Yuan (RMB) for a dollar; many currency traders think it'll be 5.50 to 6 RMB to the dollar by the end of this year. After the Olympic Games it'll probably gain strength faster as the Chinese right now are keeping down the ascend of their currency to promote the tourism industry during the Olympic games.

What economist do you know of that wants to force a devaluation of the Chinese RMB? That's the first I've heard. Are you sure you aren't talking about them wanting it to be revalued, and not devalued?

 

[shooter]

They do have strong currency. It is being run by our dollar buying all their crap and it hurts us more by them not valuing it as such. Now ask an economist why they want to force the devaluation of their currency which not so coincidentally hurts ours.


Damn it, I’ll probably be late for my flight now but I had to come back to say - huh?

I'm not sure what you mean by "they (China) have a strong currency?"

China was until a little more than a year ago pegged to the dollar (Hong Kong still is). Now they use a basket of currencies and the Yuan has strengthened toward the dollar some 15% since de-pegging. Most economists agree that it’s still 25-45% undervalued to where the Chinese purchasing power really is today.

Right now it costs just under 7 Yuan (RMB) for a dollar; many currency traders think it'll be 5.50 to 6 RMB to the dollar by the end of this year. After the Olympic Games it'll probably gain strength faster as the Chinese right now are keeping down the ascend of their currency to promote the tourism industry during the Olympic games.

What economist do you know of that wants to force a devaluation of the Chinese RMB? That's the first I've heard. Are you sure you aren't talking about them wanting it to be revalued, and not devalued?

no no no , you misread what I was saying. You and I are saying the same thing. When I say they are forcing the devaluation, I am speaking of the Chinese government forcing the value down. Most economists say it should be valued higher which makes it stronger than what the value represents. When I said ask an economist, I was saying ask what benefit China has by keeping their currency under valued. It is kind of scary if you go as far as conspiracy theorists reasons since so much of our debt is being bought by China.

It's early in the morning. Sorry if my post was confusing.

 

[767pilot]

My rant may have started with DHL, but really has to do with foreign companies being allowed to buy up America and be able to destroy us from the inside. One American job at a time and one American company at a time.

Do you really feel that DP did this for the sole purpose of destroying american jobs? I think that was just a byproduct of their shi&&y management. I'm sure that they would have rather seen it flourish and create 10,000 more american jobs.

 

[shooter]

Do you really feel that DP did this for the sole purpose of destroying american jobs? I think that was just a byproduct of their shi&&y management. I'm sure that they would have rather seen it flourish and create 10,000 more american jobs.

DHL aside, my rant went on about the state of our job market. Many many many jobs have been outsourced and that was the basis for my rant. It ties into the DHL mess because many good paying jobs will not be able to be replaced. The best paying of those jobs would be the pilots. Two different animals in the same cage. Hope that clears it up a bit.