Thunderstorms, anyone fly thru them?

[Bryan D]

Just wondering. I know they contain every danger known to man and airplane but my boss wants me to fly thru or under them and I don't feel it's safe. Thoughts?

 

[pilotyip]

Not recommended

Used to, no wx radar on our P-3's in the 60's, crossing the Atlantic FL250 IFR ran into embedded TW's a couple times, You really get bounced around. Everyone had to be strapped in, rain sounds like machine guns. If there were really bad, a good operator on the surface search radar, APS 125, could pick'em out. Please correct me if I am wrong, there was a rule you could use to fly under them, 1/3 the distance below the frezzing level. Then again we used to fly in frezzing rain also.

 

[dapilot]

ARE YOU NUTS? **DO NOT** fly through thunderstorms no matter what aircraft you are in - are you looking for a deathwish? If you get stuck in one, you will probably get bounced around so much that you may impose structural damage. Thinking about flying underneath them? You can get up to 6000 fpm downdrafts ! There is a reason why airliners avoid them like the plague !

 

[tomgoodman]

Duh!

Several years ago, a joint USAF/NOAA project called "Rough Rider" placed data recorders in fighter planes and test pilots flew them into thunderstorms. I saw some of the pictures: smashed radomes, cracked canopies, dented wings, etc.
No one needs to collect any more data of this :smash: kind.

 

[pilotyip]

Read E. Gann, another pre-radar guy who flew them he describes it well.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Just look at the NTSB data base on accidents involving thunderstorms. Every year a plane of some size is either severly damaged or is thrown out the bottom of a thunderstorm in a great, big pile of crummpled aluminum. I think those who don't make it through are the ones who really went through a storm. Everyone else was just close enough. It takes skill and experience to Not go through a CB...it takes total lack of knowledge and judgment to be in one.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Uh...no.

 

[GogglesPisano]

but my boss wants me to fly thru or under them and I don't feel it's safe. Thoughts?

Find another job.

 

[avbug]

I've done it in Lears doing weather research and modification. My strongest advice is to stay well clear of thunderstorms. Forces exist inside which may easily exceed the performance and structural capabilities of any aircraft ever built.

Inside cells I've encountered extreme turbulence, severe icing (up to three inches in one pass through a cell), and lightening which burned holes through control surfaces, fuel tanks, and up and down the sides of the aircraft. A year ago my own laptop was in a padded bag secured in the baggage, and had it's internals forcibly extracted from the forces encountered passing adjacent to a cell...not even through a cell. Additionally, one of my headsets, worn by an equipment operator in back, was broken. We encountered a strong buffet, shaker, and stick pusher and a roll of about 90 degrees when the bottom fell out. That was a mild event compared to what you can find in there.

I've been inside them in other aircraft too, and in every case can think of many other places I'd rather be. Again, I'd strongly recommend staying clear.

 

[30West]

Unless of course you're in a 210 or Baron flying cancelled checks and bottles of whizz according to some chuckleheads here who claim to do it " all the time"

I'd tell the guy in no uncertain terms what to do with himself and look for other work. Nobody needs their rubber dog doo that badly.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Yeah, when I was young and dumb and doing exactly what 30West was talking about. I mean, I was not dumb enough to fly directly thru something on the radar that was 10 miles in diameter, with lightning shooting out all sides, and it showing heavy precip on the radar. However, I certainly worked around and between cells and occasionally they closed up before I got there. There was the occasional rough ride and once or twice I gained a 1,000' or so. It wasn't worth it and I would never intentionally do it again. I was lucky and never had anything bad happen. I luckily never had hail smashing the airplane, never ended up in an unusual attitude, or anything worse. Don't let anybody talk you into doing it as it isn't worth taking the chance. If you find yourself in that situation, just remember to slow it down and that if the A/P is on to turn the altitude hold off.

 

[OrionFE]

Used to, no wx radar on our P-3's in the 60's, crossing the Atlantic FL250 IFR ran into embedded TW's a couple times, You really get bounced around. Everyone had to be strapped in, rain sounds like machine guns. If there were really bad, a good operator on the surface search radar, APS 125, could pick'em out. Please correct me if I am wrong, there was a rule you could use to fly under them, 1/3 the distance below the frezzing level. Then again we used to fly in frezzing rain also.

Flew through many in P-3's and it was not fun! We (reserves) finally bought and installed Color WX Radar's in our aircraft in the 90's. It was a nice relief!

 

[rustypigeon]

Turn 35 right and see if he still likes flying through thunderstorms....

 

[time builder]

http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/

I've found the thunderstorm course on this site to be very helpful. Most importantly, enlist the help of ATC and other pilots (ie recent PIREPS).

Until you are more comfortable with reading the signs of what you can and can't fly through, I'd follow the lead of others and play it conservative.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Bryan,

This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't be anywhere near a thunderstorm.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

If they're just little ones, you'll probably survive, but you should never ever fly through one over FL220.
I've flown through a few T-storms in jets. Two of them were at FL400 in a Lear a couple years ago... One right after the other; one of the stupidest things I've ever done!
Got our butts kicked all over the place. 500' up, 500' down, overspeeding, underspeeding, parts of the interior falling from the ceiling of the airplane.
That's what I get for listening to an stupid captain who thinks they know what they're doing. If she wasn't a woman, I would have kicked her ass when we landed.
Don't do it! Tell your boss absolutely not, and if he argues, quit; and then kick HIS ass.

 

[Oh-ryan]

You all are a bunch of pansies. NOAA and the 53rd Wx Recon Squadron do it all the time. They prefer hurricanes though.

 

[icefr8dawg]

I once loaned my nightly ride to another pilot who flew through two storms on his run. He took 1/8 inch of aluminum off my props and destroyed the high end paint job I just did myself. I think the prop paddles were $1500 each at overhaul and he destroyed over $1000 of polyurethane. From the ownership standpoint it just dosn't make sense for the boss to want his plane in heavy ********************.

 

[Lear6T]

Time to get a new boss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[phr8dawg]

I have found the following rules helpful:
1. 10,000 feet tops: no risk,maybe some ice
2. 20,000 feet tops: pass upwind close
3. 20,000+ : pass upwind, a few miles
4. Hail can come out the back too.
5. Below the deck,stay upwind of rain shafts
6. IMC: Have a plan of attack and a solid escape route. Have lots of "happy gas." (extra fuel!)
7. Do not assume a radar" corridor" will be there when you arrive. See rule 6.

I recently vectored myself into a box canyon of cells, experienced full attenuation on the radar, then the whole windshield lit up with Elmo's fire. A few seconds later all the static was sucked off the windshield by a lightning bolt which appeared off our nose. Unreal.

"RUN, Forrest, RUN! "We turned and ran. Never jostled the rubber dog poo.

Does your boss really have weather experience?

Please fly safe

 

[Seadogrun]

Gotta ask: Why in the world would your boss want to do that? I think it's time to find another job.

 

[Varig]

I have flown through them twice because the idiot seating in the left didn't know how to use the weather radar. Once in it, what did he do?? Started turning right away. I didn't know if I punched him or took control of the plane. Lots of ice, severe turbulence etc. Not a pretty picture.

 

[avbug]

You didn't know that you punched the captain, or if you did it? You didn't know if you took control of the airplane? You simply have no recollection, or you were or are unaware of your actions? Generally taking control of the airplane, particularly taking it away from the PIC, is somewhat memorable...and most would have a very clear mental record of having belted someone. Just done it so many times that you can't straighten them all out, or was it so traumatic that you've blocked it from your memory?

Or are you simply spinning a yarn, there?

 

[Oh-ryan]

I have flown through them twice because the idiot seating in the left didn't know how to use the weather radar. Once in it, what did he do?? Started turning right away. I didn't know if I punched him or took control of the plane. Lots of ice, severe turbulence etc. Not a pretty picture.

So, let's see. The guy in the left seat don't know squat about the Wx radar and the guy in the right seat either don't know squat about the Wx radar or don't know squat about CRM.

Not a pretty picture.

 

[Varig]

Sorry guys, I was pretty tired when I wrote that post. What I meant to say was I felt like punching him for being so stupid and turning inside a thunderstorm. I also felt like taking controls of the airplane.
Unfortunately where I fly there is no CRM. It's a "captain is God mentality". I told him not to turn but he didn't listen and kept turning. During the turn we were beat up pretty good from the turbulence. Also there was alot of ice built up. After we were through it, he was pale. You should've seen the look on his face.
Anyways the mentality here is very unsafe. No wonder we are averaging one fatal accident a year.

 

[avbug]

The mentality here is very unsafe, is it?

Whereas nearly every poster has advocated thunderstorm avoidance, what in that mentality do you find detrimental to safety?

If you feel inclined to start punching anyone presently, perhaps you should step away from your keyboard and get some fresh air.

You may not be aware that sometimes a turn in the storm may be the best option. In fact, it may save your life.

 

[Varig]

The mentality where I fly, not the mentality on the board. I agree with what has been said here and that's why I wanted to share what happens down here.

 

[avbug]

Gotcha.

On the subject of turning out of a storm, since it's on the table...

If one knows what the storm profile was upon entering, very often one may have a good idea of the best escape path. The counsel is often to continue straight through to minimize time in the cell. However, the lesser gradients are found on the outer sides of the cell, and if one hasn't penetrated the heaviest returns with the greatest up or downshears, then one may well be advised to make a turn in the shortest direction to exit the storm.

The decision to do this really has to be made in light of the specific circumstances, however. If, for example, you saw a steep gradient (thin band of green, thin band of yellow, thick band of red or magenta), then you know it gets bad quickly. Imagine you saw that with no returns on the backside...what you are probably seeing is attenuation, or a radar shadow...you may be going from bad to worse to a shadow on the other side...which may be even worse. A turn may be in the cards.

If you saw the edge of a cell and have penetrated that then a slight change in course to exit the cell faster may be your best bet.

Depending on the radar you have available, you may be able at a minimum to navigate through the level 1-2 stuff and avoid returns with higher db.

Definitely don't resign yourself to simply holding course if you have other options. If control has become a problem and you're down to the basic survival skill of keeping the airplane upright (very possible inside a thunderstorm of any great significance), navigating may be a far second priority to just keeping control and getting through it. At a time like that, follow standard thunderstorm guidance, slow down, allow altitude and airspeed to vary, and just keep it under control until you either come unglued, or get to better conditions.

 

[learflyer]

My favorite are the guys who turn the radar on AFTER they're in the middle of the storm. Too late!
A wise man once told me "if you die because of wx, your funeral is on a sunny day."

 

[avbug]

A wise man once told me "if you die because of wx, your funeral is on a sunny day."

An excellent quote, though I suspect mine, if there is one, will be on a rainy day and the pipe will get struck with lightening. That's my prediction, anyway. At least the wake will be dry.

A few months ago we departed HKG during some weather that was gusty and had bouts of heavy rain. I tilted the radar prior to departure and looked for cell signatures, but didn't see anythin really with any definition, no obvious attenuation, no contours of significance...even though we had heard thunder on and off while prepping for the flight. Flights were arriving and departing.

We began a series of left turns per ATC vectoring, and about 4 minutes after departure as we made a turn 180 from the runway heading, the radar as showing light ahead, then just complete attenuation. Nada. We got into some significant turbulence, and I found that even maintaining a positive climb was difficult. ATC was able to provide some help, but not much due to the widespread nature of the weather. Our biggest clue to the intensity of the weather was the decibel level of the rain over the flight deck...and it was loud at times.

The radar was no help at all. We went to secondary radar, tried ranging in and out, tried tilting, different settings, ran a test pattern and back again, turned it off and then back on to reset...it was flat-out attenuating, seemingly at the radome, and this without ice, and no previous indications of significant lobes or other radome-attenuation issues.