AirTran Fruloughs

[FO 4 Life]

and UPS lost money last quarter

Here's UPS Q1 2008. That with spending 1.25B to buy back stock.

Income Statement Quarterly
(Mar '08) Total Revenue 12,675.00 Gross Profit 3,332.00 Operating Income 1,493.00 Net Income 906.00

Not meant to hijack, just a correction. Sorry to all you guys at Tranny.

 

[PCL_128]

Since I don't work for the Tranny, can someone explain the anger towards mgmt about job cuts? With fuel being as expensive as it is and other costs also up, why are people so upset at cost cutting measures? This is a cost-side problem the airlines are dealing with rather than a revenue problem right?

Are you kidding? Pilots aren't here to buy fuel for the company. There is not cost-side problem, anyway, especially not at this company. We have the lowest CASM in the entire industry. The problem is a revenue problem.

 

[twepilot]

more aptly..lowest NON_FUEL CASM...

RV

 

[PCL_128]

more aptly..lowest NON_FUEL CASM...

RV

Both, actually. When you look at similar stage lengths, we actually beat SWA even when you look at fuel-inclusive CASM. SWA has a longer average stage length, so that affects their fuel-inclusive CASM when you don't correct for the stage length difference.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Are you kidding? Pilots aren't here to buy fuel for the company. There is not cost-side problem, anyway, especially not at this company. We have the lowest CASM in the entire industry. The problem is a revenue problem.

No, I wasn't kidding. Are your revenues down? Fuel is up at a staggering rate...that is a cost. Revenue would have to drop a significant rate for it to overcome the increased cost of fuel. If it dropped that much, the Tranny would propbably go out of business in a day. Are you maybe referring to yield being down rather than revenue?

 

[PCL_128]

Fuel is up at a staggering rate...that is a cost.

Yes, that is a cost, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the pilots. We don't pay for fuel with our salaries. If fuel prices go up, management needs to find other ways to increase revenue or cut costs. Expecting the pilots or other employees to foot the bill is unacceptable.

Are you maybe referring to yield being down rather than revenue?

I never said revenue was down, I said that revenue wasn't sufficient. When costs go up, revenue needs to go up to compensate. I've seen little from management in the way of creating additional revenue. Instead, they're focusing on stealing my next paycheck.

 

[scarlet]

The union should not give in to the retirees !!!!!!!!!

 

[Lear70]

Any word on whats to come of the training dept folks as the 180 get furloughed?

Still up for discussion.

The company is still using it as a stick. Let them keep their instructors, and they will just "furlough" the bottom 177, instead of outright terminations.

The union BoD has said that is not a fair trade-off, and wants many other things in exchange for giving the company the ability to keep the retirees in the training center.

No on really wants to hurt the retirees; there are some very nice gentlemen in that department, but that's 14 positions that could be filled with line pilots and keep 14 First Officers from being in the unemployment line. The union bears a responsibility to those First Officers as current, dues-paying pilots, to try to keep them employed, if possible, and the union is living up to that responsibility.

In all likelihood, the company won't give the union the trade-off needed, they will terminate the probationary pilots, the union will seek an injunction, they'll get the injunction, the company will be forced to terminate the retirees, but won't bring back any of the terminated/furloughed pilots to cover the void as line pilots are put into training center positions, just for spite.

Ugly is the only real word to describe the situation.

 

[Lear70]

Since I don't work for the Tranny, can someone explain the anger towards mgmt about job cuts? With fuel being as expensive as it is and other costs also up, why are people so upset at cost cutting measures? This is a cost-side problem the airlines are dealing with rather than a revenue problem right?

My condolences to those losing their jobs...it is a tough industry we are all in today.

Thank you for the condolences, it really is the worst time I've ever heard of in aviation.

To answer your question, it's the way the company is approaching it that's p*ssing everyone off.

Read my first post on the subject. They're demanding pay concessions AND relief on training instructor issues AND threatening not just to furlough, but to outright TERMINATE all the probationary pilots with NO recall rights if management doesn't get their way.

Someone compared the situation to "negotiating with terrorists". When a NORMAL company tells pilots they are furloughing, the focus is on giving an explanation of why, a business plan for profitability and an outline for the return of pilots, as well as offering Leaves of Absence and Early Retirements to help offset those furloughs.

Continental is a perfect example of how it is SUPPOSED to work.

Only at AirTran do you have the sheer animosity in the way they approached it. You have to look at the whole picture of what they did, in order, in the same basic time frame of the furloughs to grasp the reaction it engenders. Remember, employees aren't looking at just one aspect of it, they get hit with announcement after announcement after announcement of all that crap, right in a row.

If someone had said all that to you, I don't think you'd be saying, "Oh, it's just the industry". Furloughs don't automatically mean "we're going to fire you with no recall rights and screw with your career to get a few little things we want in the contract".

 

[AA717driver]

Ditto the condolences. Standing by to get MY WARN letter... TC

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Bring it on

As one of the new hires destined for the street, I say we don't move an inch on any changes to the CBA or concessions. I don't think I want to work for a company that would even consider using employees as leverage to get what they want. It speaks volumes about the kind of people they are. This isn't just business. They are playing with people's livelihoods and I take that very personally.

I would rather be on the street and see this union really stand up for itself and tell Bob F. to go have sex with himself than have recall rights to a position that isn't worth coming back to. I love my job and I have enjoyed the people I have flown with, but enough is enough. Getting fired may be the best thing that could happen for me.... it would be the kick in the ass I need to go out and get a real job.

Stay strong everyone. Don't be intimidated, fly the contract and stick to your guns.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

PCL-

No, you didn't say revenue was down...you said there was a "revenue problem." Maybe you could expound on what you mean there.

Managers must address all costs, which includes us pilots! Whatother ways should they look for? They can only look for controllable costs right? They cannot control the price of fuel, but they can control the price of labor. Should other employees at the Tranny take cuts so the pilots don't have to?

Lear-

Thanks, that was what I was trying to understand. I would agree completely that threatening to fire newbys to get concessions is quite upestting. Does your contract allow this?

 

[PCL_128]

No, you didn't say revenue was down...you said there was a "revenue problem." Maybe you could expound on what you mean there.

What I mean is simple: when your costs go up, you need to pass those costs along to the customer. Most industries understand this quite well. Only the airline industry thinks that it makes sense to pass costs along to the employees instead.

Managers must address all costs, which includes us pilots! Whatother ways should they look for?

Many of our pilots have made suggestions for other ways to cut costs. Employees costs shouldn't even be on the table.

They cannot control the price of fuel, but they can control the price of labor.

See, there's your problem. Labor should be looked at just like the cost of fuel: the price of labor is the price of labor. It isn't adjustable when times get bad. If a pilot costs $100k during good times, he still costs $100k during bad times, just as a barrel of Jet-A costs the same and isn't negotiable. Why do you find it acceptable for them to demand concessions from you and not from the fuel companies? Why do you see a difference? Both should be fixed costs.

Should other employees at the Tranny take cuts so the pilots don't have to?

No! No employee should take a cut. Period.

 

[B727Driver]

What's DOH for the most junior Capt after furloughs? Just wondering, know a few there just do not have current numbers to call.

 

[j41driver]

That's standard for a layoff announcement. The positions are being eliminated, and they can be reinstated when the time for recalls comes around.

When you put the wording in the reduction notice together with their previously stated intention to fire the probationary pilots it isn't a big stretch to imagine their plans.