DAL, Why Vote No???

[~~~^~~~]

True.

Fine with me. They are Delta pilots.

My SWAG is that they will come over via an entitlement bid with what they can hold without displacing Delta pilots. Makes more sense than a lot of extra training cycles on the wrong aircraft. Hence the rush to get this done.

 

[licorice]

Like I said go read all of the LOA and Memorandums of Understanding on the ALPA site. There are over 150 pages of documents there. Basically everything tied to this merger from both sides.
Let early out MOA is probably for NWA guys, but it is vague, as it should be.
The framework is there as well. Also there is a MOA between both MEC's on the SLI and discovery. It is vague but what I got from it was that pay per seat does not equate seniority of A/C or pilot. Again I may be stretching here, but it does leave a lot to interpretation.

There are protections for DAL pilots in LOA 19 that are not there in the JPWA with obvious reason. It is joint contract and favoring one side should not be included and isn't. I will say that after eight plus hrs of reading this stuff today, I am impressed with the depth at which we negotiated. I want all of this behind us, but loosing my job when I otherwise would have not is a steep price to pay. Not saying I am a no, just stating a thought. In fact if I had to vote today, it would probably be a yes.
I hope that the road shows present the facts and not try to sway the rank-and-file's vote. Basically we are all voting for our future. How we play this will determine what type of group we are for the next 30 years.

I heard this on another post, which is a little hard to believe.... pay will not be a factor in SLI? So I guess DL and NW pilots benefitted equally from the TA? This seems a little hard to believe that the DL MEC would agree to that (if it's true) There has to be something more to that story than meets the eye...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Licorice,

There is. As ACL65 posted, you have to read the whole package. Included therein is a non-prejudicial agreement that outlines the rules of engagement for SLI. It will be a negotiated settlement. If negotiations fail, then both sides have a framework for a fair arbitration.

From your MEC/LEC page, go to the merger page, in the center of the page is a list of documents. Click below to see all documents and the other agreements are listed below. Well worth your time to read them.

NWA has theirs posted also.

I could be surprised, but I think both sides will be fairly handled under the framework agreed to.

 

[Superpilot92]

What furloughs? You guys are arguing hypothetical situations, as of right now furloughs arent going to happen. On a positive note, they are working on getting some of the senior guys to jumpship which is good for all of us. DAL offered some programs on your side also, right? Both sides would prefer not to furlough and take on the added costs of training since they know any furlough would be short lived with the new planes coming. I just dont see furloughs happening UNLESS oil keeps going up. Lets hope after the 4th of july weekend it will stabilize or go back down.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'll make it simple.....

Delta Pilots have no upside as a result of this Joint contract. No improvements other than double OT pay. NWA pilots get 1000 sick bank until exhausted, big pay raises, comparable equity, a pension (frozen, but still there).

I voted yes on LOA 19 to give them time to work out improvements on TOP OF the LOA.....which never materialized. We have leverage as a group, and nobody wants to take the helm. ALPA has signed on unanimously supporting this POS, which makes me even more suspicious....oh and did I mention a 2013 amended date.....so using the usual bargaining position of management, we won't see any Section 6 improvements until 2015 at the earliest with a fraction of retro pay.....

Did someone mention the SLI?? We haven't even begun that road to Arbitration yet....

Yeah, GREAT TA ALPA(Thumbs up!!!)

Count me for a NO vote!!!

 

[Superpilot92]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

Thats not just a DAL beef, NWALPA listed those issues as 1 of their beefs also. I will find the quote for you.

 

[DTW320]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

Do you mean the 319? A320 = 148 seats.

If that was DAL's beef then it was disingenuous for them to NOT have a beef with paying the 747-400 the same as the smaller 777.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And thus why the letter was written.

 

[DTW320]

I'll make it simple.....

Delta Pilots have no upside as a result of this Joint contract. Yet you thought LOA19 was fine right? No improvements other than double OT pay. NWA pilots get 1000 sick bank until exhausted,1000 hours that were earned over years and years and still represents a huge reduction for many pilots with balances way over 1000,big pay raises brought to parity with DAL....are you suggesting that DAL pilots should make more than NWA pilots after the merger is complete?, comparable equity see above, a pension (frozen, but still there)The frozen pension was not something NWA "got" from the joint contract....it was "gotten" from the NWA contracts from the past decades.

I voted yes on LOA 19 to give them time to work out improvements on TOP OF the LOA.....which never materialized. We have leverage as a group, and nobody wants to take the helm. ALPA has signed on unanimously supporting this POS, which makes me even more suspicious....oh and did I mention a 2013 amended date.....so using the usual bargaining position of management, we won't see any Section 6 improvements until 2015 at the earliest with a fraction of retro pay.....look around...hopefully by 2013 we will still be in business and things may have improved enough with oil/industry to have even a shot at improving anything.

Did someone mention the SLI?? We haven't even begun that road to Arbitration yet....Have you read the TA?

Yeah, GREAT TA ALPA(Thumbs up!!!)

Count me for a NO vote!!!

You should vote your conscience, but think about what the ultimate outcome of downing this may be.

​

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I for one, am overall fine with the JPWA. The NWA pilots as we knew had to get some improvements to bring them up to our contract... thus it is logical they will benefit more from the JPWA as their payrates and other items were considerably lower.


I've got a fairly good feeling about the SLI- I think it will go someplace close to relative. From what I've seen so far, yes vote from me.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think that once people really look at these as two separate events and can read all the documents as such, they will realize that there is not much a yes vote or a no vote will do to derail this event. It may cause more issue in the near term to vote no.
Voting No does not mean that the SLI will not continue. It just means that we will have to deal with a joint contract down the road after the SLI. Most DAL guys I talk to are for that. They see no gains by voting this in. The JPWA binds a lot of things that are still quite unknown.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Myself and a lot of other as well are a yes. People need to separate the forest from the trees. Stopping this will not change a thing. Remember the NWA guys are not your enemy. Current sparring partner yes, but not your enemy.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

You should vote your conscience, but think about what the ultimate outcome of downing this may be.

320,

You are damn right I thought LOA 19 was ok....because it was supposed to be a stepping stone.....a spot to pause while you redtails did your whining. Once together, we should have used LOA 19 as the foundation for a better contract....not the status quo.....

It is what it is, Delta pilots get nothing other than double pay for OT and you guys get LOTS of improvements AND EQUITY ....of course I want parity...but add it up....big improvements to your pension protecting BK contract (how's those interstate layovers??) while we see NOTHING but posturing over who's gonna eat your furloughs....

ooooooo.....and what would that "ultimate outcome" be crystal ballsack?? Go run home and find another arguement and quit selling fear like the MEC's will do to shove this POS down throats....

 

[Superpilot92]

I heard this on another post, which is a little hard to believe.... pay will not be a factor in SLI? So I guess DL and NW pilots benefitted equally from the TA? This seems a little hard to believe that the DL MEC would agree to that (if it's true) DID YOU JUST SAY THAT?? There has to be something more to that story than meets the eye...

WOW!! DO YOU REALIZE HOW BAD THAT SOUNDS?

 

[DTW320]

320,

You are damn right I thought LOA 19 was ok....because it was supposed to be a stepping stone.....a spot to pause while you redtails did your whining. Once together, we should have used LOA 19 as the foundation for a better contract....not the status quo.....

It is what it is, Delta pilots get nothing other than double pay for OT and you guys get LOTS of improvements AND EQUITY ....of course I want parity...but add it up....big improvements to your pension protecting BK contract (how's those interstate layovers??) while we see NOTHING but posturing over who's gonna eat your furloughs....

ooooooo.....and what would that "ultimate outcome" be crystal ballsack?? Go run home and find another arguement and quit selling fear like the MEC's will do to shove this POS down throats....

Ya know, I'm not sure what the hell your problem is, but you sure seem like a miserable person who sees threats and accusations around every corner where there are none. Whatever. The ultimate outcome I suggested is what has been said here many times by other DAL pilots: that the end result of downing this will be the same, except for even less in the contract. If you could see around the gigantic chip on your shoulder you would notice that the negotiating environment has gotten even worse in the last month. What does your own MEC who brought you LOA19 have to say about why this was not any better? Do you think they didn't even try to improve upon LOA19? Think they can just get RA to give whatever they want? You don't make a lick of sense. You say you are for parity but then WHINE about all the improvements NWA pilots get. Sorry you had to "pause" while the redtails whined. At least we got it out of our system. Whose whining now Bill? Just vote No and tell Lee that the redtails shouldn't get so much......but that you are for parity.

 

[licorice]

WOW!! DO YOU REALIZE HOW BAD THAT SOUNDS?

WELL, GEE, MOM,---NO, HAVE I BEEN A BAD BOY TODAY? SHAME ON ME! Tell me, "super koolaid guzzling guilt-bomb pilot", just what exactly are the acceptable (or should I say, politically correct) criteria used to actually decide a seniority list? I mean, there has to be something about the the respective pilot groups' demographics that will factor in to an SLI settlement... it doesn't happen by magic! Believe me, DOH sounds just as obscene to me as pre-merger PAYRATES does to you. Don't delude yourself by thinking you occupy some sort of "moral high-ground" because of your "distaste" for "money"--it is what makes the (capitalist) world go round. -BTW, on a lighter note, my question has been answered-- the new "irrational" payrates for the combined fleets is a preemptive "salvo" in an attempt to "rationalize" the SLI, thus pay has "sort of" been taken out of the picture. (much to the chagrin of the MD-88/747 pilots)

 

[~~~^~~~]

Licorice:

Here are a couple of references for your perusal, found by a friend on another board.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...View.aspx?itemid=3282&ModuleId=3052&Tabid=256

http://crewroom.alpa.org/aaa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=21671

You can also read arbitrators' ruling on prior seniority list integrations. I used to read these and will try to find some links.

You MUST read the agreement between your MEC Chairs dated 23 June 2008 named "SLI no Prejudice" as well as the Transition Framework to understand how this works.

It is like having to read the FOM and the Flight Crew Training Manual and Volume II, but you have to have all the parts in place.

 

[~~~^~~~]

In an nutshell:

The ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy directs the merger representatives to “carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.”​

In practice, many mergers have been ratios based on pay & equipment type. This can result in a staple (Ransome was progressively "stapled" by Pan Am, in effect) or can result in ratios like Nicolau ruled in Tigers/FedEx and US Air. You have to look at what each side brings to the table.

Most importantly, you need to understand what your MEC has agreed to in their effort to make this a fair SLI. These letters are what changed my mind about the merger's chances for success.

I was very upset about the pay rates in the JPWA because some do not reflect the capacities of the aircraft. But again, everyone who cares about this has to read the SLI and Transition agreements to understand the rules. IMHO both sides are engaging on fair terms.

We did learn from US Air.

Haven't learned anything about scope though... I'm a failure on that point, I guess.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Ya know, I'm not sure what the hell your problem is, but you sure seem like a miserable person who sees threats and accusations around every corner where there are none. Whatever. The ultimate outcome I suggested is what has been said here many times by other DAL pilots: that the end result of downing this will be the same, except for even less in the contract. If you could see around the gigantic chip on your shoulder you would notice that the negotiating environment has gotten even worse in the last month. What does your own MEC who brought you LOA19 have to say about why this was not any better? Do you think they didn't even try to improve upon LOA19? Think they can just get RA to give whatever they want? You don't make a lick of sense. You say you are for parity but then WHINE about all the improvements NWA pilots get. Sorry you had to "pause" while the redtails whined. At least we got it out of our system. Whose whining now Bill? Just vote No and tell Lee that the redtails shouldn't get so much......but that you are for parity.

Throttle back 320,

My "gigantic chip on my shoulder" tells me that I am so very happy for your parity. Truly!! I think that it was necessary to level the field (like dropping your pensions, THAT's true parity). What disgusts me is the fact that there should have been IMPROVEMENTS to LOA 19.....not the status quo FOR EVERYBODY. Sure, you LOVE it......big raises, etc. etc. and all I see is just 5-7 more years of BK wages and not much else.

It's not my job to worry about what RA could give, not my problem.......raise the fares....can't afford it?? Oil too high?? We have faced worse in this business, gas crunches in the 70's, sept. 11 (remember that? Nobody knew if anybody was going to fly period), we will weather the storm. They need to raise fares to cover costs, plain and simple....use our leverage to do this or shut this dog and pony show down.

Of course you love this deal, you guys took it in the hole between your legs to keep your pension and now, this deal is GOLDEN.....

Well, sorry if this offends but, What's in it for me?? Not much, hence the "NO" vote. Kumbaya is great if everybody gets SOMETHING....Delta got a big fat donut hole out of this JPWA.....there should have been larger raises etc.....

I'm sick of my union doing management's job for them. Managing low expectations and then barely exceeding them has become the norm, and I'm sick of it. You guys fought last summer and got some improvements during great american Sickout and acted like a union, not like the DAL MEC that just drives a drunk to the liquor store for more booze.....continually allowing management to get wahtever they want....

Rant over!! Believe it or not, I'm on your side....I want this thing to work, management just needs to up the ante.....

 

[Speedbird34]

Ya know, I'm not sure what the hell your problem is, but you sure seem like a miserable person who sees threats and accusations around every corner where there are none. Whatever. The ultimate outcome I suggested is what has been said here many times by other DAL pilots: that the end result of downing this will be the same, except for even less in the contract. If you could see around the gigantic chip on your shoulder you would notice that the negotiating environment has gotten even worse in the last month. What does your own MEC who brought you LOA19 have to say about why this was not any better? Do you think they didn't even try to improve upon LOA19? Think they can just get RA to give whatever they want? You don't make a lick of sense. You say you are for parity but then WHINE about all the improvements NWA pilots get. Sorry you had to "pause" while the redtails whined. At least we got it out of our system. Whose whining now Bill? Just vote No and tell Lee that the redtails shouldn't get so much......but that you are for parity.

I am getting sick and tired of Northwest guys like you attacking Delta guys who do not share your joy at the TA.
You hated LOA19 and expressed it very vocally. You guys even called Delta guys scabs. We had ugly jumpseat events towards Delta pilots by Northwest guys. Now a Delta pilot cannot have a No position because you feel the TA is the best thing since slice bread or the roof is falling bla bla bla.
Speak for yourself and stop acting like some stupid kid

 

[Speedbird34]

Throttle back 320,

My "gigantic chip on my shoulder" tells me that I am so very happy for your parity. Truly!! I think that it was necessary to level the field. What disgusts me is the fact that there should have been IMPROVEMENTS to LOA 19.....not the status quo FOR EVERYBODY. Sure, you LOVE it......big raises, etc. etc. and all I see is just 5-7 more years of BK wages and not much else.

It's not my job to worry about what RA could give, not my problem.......raise the fares....

Of course you love this deal, you guys took it in the hole between your legs to keep your pension and now, this deal is GOLDEN.....

Well, sorry if this offends but, What's in it for me?? Not much, hence the "NO" vote. Kumbaya is great if everybody gets SOMETHING....Delta got a big fat donut hole out of this JPWA.....there should have been larger raises etc.....

I hate DTW320 foolish remarks

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ya know, I'm not sure what the hell your problem is, but you sure seem like a miserable person who sees threats and accusations around every corner where there are none. .... the negotiating environment has gotten even worse in the last month.

The NWA side scored while DAL got status quo... and now the DAL side has their status quo threatened by a merger. Understand that Lumbergh is giving something up without any payoff, or risk premium being paid.

The NWA also come to SLI with a risk. But they have recieved very significant immediate pay raises to accept that risk.

I think a common exclamation from those who win lotteries is "why is everyone else bitching?"

Delta pilots are living in the house on the hill. Someone else just parked their house next door on a 1/4 acre lot and the County will not let either side build a fence. Understand the inevitable tensions. Here in the South we have the wifey bake an Apple Pie, or take over a six pack of Sweetwater 420 ourselves.

The JPWA may be the first LOA the Delta pilots have voted down in a long, long, time. It's running over 85% "no" on internal forums. As a NWA pilot, I would not be poking sticks at Delta pilots, they can hurt you more than you can hurt them with this vote. Lets not go there.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I am getting sick and tired of Northwest guys like you attacking Delta guys who do not share your joy at the TA.
You hated LOA19 and expressed it very vocally. You guys even called Delta guys scabs. We had ugly jumpseat events towards Delta pilots by Northwest guys. Now a Delta pilot cannot have a No position because you feel the TA is the best thing since slice bread or the roof is falling bla bla bla.
Speak for yourself and stop acting like some stupid kid

He was all over everybody when this merger was announced, and now it's just roses for him.

 

[~~~^~~~]

True.....

 

[DTW320]

DTW320 is another brainless drone this merger is dragging into our mix. I hate the guy

And it takes about 10 seconds of reading ANY of your posts to see who slipped through a crack in the hiring process. If you hate me.....then I'm doing something right. Brainless drone.....is that a racial comment towards me?

 

[DTW320]

He was all over everybody when this merger was announced, and now it's just roses for him.

Nope. I was always for this merger. I was always against Delta pilots such as yourself thinking that you should get more than NWA pilots in contract and SLI. Something that you obviously still believe.

 

[DTW320]

Delta pilots are living in the house on the hill. Someone else just parked their house next door on a 1/4 acre lot and the County will not let either side build a fence. Understand the inevitable tensions. Here in the South we have the wifey bake an Apple Pie, or take over a six pack of Sweetwater 420 ourselves.

Delta pilots have been renting the house on the hill. They payed the rent with their pensions. Now, the landlord has bought the house next door which comes with the existing tenants. The landlord has given both renters the same amenities package. It doesn't much change what the Delta renters have had for a while but it is a step up for the NWA renters from what the last landlord offered. Life at the top of the hill could be good.....except for those guys next door who keep complaining that the landlord should put their house up on stilts so that it will have a better view.

As for the Sweetwater.....bring it over....and don't float the mainstream.

 

[Speedbird34]

And it takes about 10 seconds of reading ANY of your posts to see who slipped through a crack in the hiring process. If you hate me.....then I'm doing something right. Brainless drone.....is that a racial comment towards me?

I do not know why I waste my time with you. I know you are black and your post establish that. Even your screen name.

But being black is not an excuse for stupidity and I have no problem telling a black guy he is messed up. I do a lot of that you know while working with black youths trying to bring them back on the right road. You will now start trying to claim to be white. Ashamed of your race right!

We have more screwed up blacks in the USA than any race and we have a lot of work to do fixing it. Dumb asses like you just make our job harder.

Dumb ass:laugh:

 

[DTW320]

I do not know why I waste my time with you. I know you are black and your post establish that. Even your screen name.

But being black is not an excuse for stupidity and I have no problem telling a black guy he is messed up. I do a lot of that you know while working with black youths trying to bring them back on the right road. You will now start trying to claim to be white. Ashamed of your race right!

We have more screwed up blacks in the USA than any race and we have a lot of work to do fixing it. Dumb asses like you just make our job harder.

Dumb ass:laugh:

You never disappoint! What COLOR is the sky in your screwed up little world? What COLOR does DTW320 mean and why?Ashamed of my race? No, just ashamed that my new airline hired an idiot like you. Still hate me? Gosh I hope so.:laugh:

Man, it is fun to mess with your little mind! And so easy too!