NWA/DELTA Joint Contract

[PlaneDrvr]

blah blah blah Doo Doo Heads! blah blah blah blah

blah You Are Too! blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah Butt Face! blah blah blah

blah Oh, Huh! blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Beam me up, Scotty! There's no sign of intelligent life here!

Don't have a dog in this fight, Thankfully.

However, Occam, I do have to say that is a very insightful analysis.

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Superpilot92]

We'll be on the same side of the table with NALPA so we'll be there with you and you'll be there with us. If DAL management jumps on our (DALPA/NALPA) first proposal, fantastic, but what if they don't?

Then what?

We (DALPA/NALPA) get together and analyze managements proposal, construct a counter proposal and continue to work together on developing a joint strategy to get it done.

DALPA's stated goal is immediate parity. That's our goal, that's what we want.

Thanks for the response its nice to see some people on here are able to post a reasonable response. I hope you are right and we knock this out quickly.

 

[737 Pylt]

You're Hilarious.

Sorry that DALPA has had to put up with the BS of NALPA insisting on a fair SLI. I know.....BS isn't it?

"Hey, ___________(insert military call sign here), this is BS from them!!" "You're right__________(insert other military call sign here)
!!!" (executes high five with ________)

How 'bout the "BS" of DAL coming up with 3 measly negotiating days in June? Will DALPA put up with that BS? Guess someone doesn't really think they need to get this done quickly huh? Why would that be? Hmmmmmm

We have a little "caveat" for you too.

Thanks for exposing yourself for the dumbass you are. You wrote the same BS diatribe on the alpa national forum!
LMFAO! At least on there you have a picture of yourself!

737

 

[JAM-BRO]

blah blah blah Doo Doo Heads! blah blah blah blah

blah You Are Too! blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah Butt Face! blah blah blah

blah Oh, Huh! blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Beam me up, Scotty! There's no sign of intelligent life here!

BUHUHUHAAAA

 

[Occam's Razor]

Thanks for exposing yourself for the dumbass you are. You wrote the same BS diatribe on the alpa national forum!
LMFAO! At least on there you have a picture of yourself!

737

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

 

[licorice]

If they don't sign a joint contract, I expect it could be one of the most expensive mistakes they could make.

Schwanker

Such a subtly crafted, finely nuanced statement delicately obscuring a quite obvious highly constructive suggestion....hey schwank, you ever thought about being a negotiator??

 

[~~~^~~~]

I can only speak for myself. I would stand behind you guys and take whatever actions were necessary to get the deal done in a timely manner. NWA pilots are not my enemy, management is. For those who have forgotten this, read the bankruptcy transcripts!

I'd like to see the SLI methodology before joining you.

If this joint contract is structured like the February deal that the NWA pilots walked away from because of the SLI, what has changed?

Oh, I get it. The NWA pilots are getting the goodies without the SLI, just like they demanded.

NWA 1
DAL 0

No wonder Occam wants his side to STFU. Why throw rocks when you're winning? After all, you might hit a sheeple and wake him up.

Be nice, please. it is in your best interests.

No kidding. Shhhh. Please be quiet while your union and management award bad behavior.

 

[Superpilot92]

I'd like to see the SLI methodology before joining you.

If this joint contract is structured like the February deal that the NWA pilots walked away from because of the SLI, what has changed?

Oh, I get it. The NWA pilots are getting the goodies without the SLI, just like they demanded.

NWA 1
DAL 0

No wonder Occam wants his side to STFU. Why throw rocks when you're winning? After all, you might hit a sheeple and wake him up.No kidding. Shhhh. Please be quiet while your union and management award bad behavior.

Dont be so quick to pass judgement, none of have all the facts.

 

[Noserider76]

After all, you might hit a sheeple and wake him up.

The sheeple may be waking up.

 

[NuGuy]

I'd like to see the SLI methodology before joining you.

If this joint contract is structured like the February deal that the NWA pilots walked away from because of the SLI, what has changed?

Oh, I get it. The NWA pilots are getting the goodies without the SLI, just like they demanded.

Heyas,

So? As far as NWA pilots are concerned, the contract and the SLI were NEVER connected. It was only the DAL negotiating team that tried to force a connection between the two.

In fact, their strategy was to try to broadcast the goodies, so that senior pilots at NWA would be tempted to vote in contract gains at the expense of the bottom half of the list.

To be honest, 2 or 3 years ago, it MIGHT have worked. The MEC was still run by the red/green show, and the big retirement push hadn't yet started, so you would have had a lot of takers.

But you are now dealing with a group that is wary from being burned time and again and onto stupid management tricks. Now that the "me generation" are mostly retired, the Cobra is back.

Seeing how easy it is for management to come back in 3-4 months and say "sorry guys, looks like we need concessions", it's MADNESS to connect anything so permanent as an SLI to a contract. It is just plain stupid.

I grow weary of saying this, so this will be the last time:

SENIORITY IS NOT FOR SALE, PERIOD.

Contracts are temporary, seniority is forever.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

No wonder Occam wants his side to STFU. Why throw rocks when you're winning? After all, you might hit a sheeple and wake him up.No kidding. Shhhh. Please be quiet while your union and management award bad behavior.

No, it's not bad behavior. It's called using leverage and good negotiating. It's how we improve things (like contract restoration) with a difficult management.

I'm disappointed in you Fins. Coming from the regionals, I would have thought you would have understood that. You guys in the RJDC would have gained more ground getting a SCP than a PID.

You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. They balk, and you hit them HARD where it hurts...in the pocketbook.

THAT'S the NWA way.

Nu

 

[Schwanker]

Such a subtly crafted, finely nuanced statement delicately obscuring a quite obvious highly constructive suggestion....hey schwank, you ever thought about being a negotiator??

I obviously don't have a grasp on the English language nearly as fluently (or is it fluidly) as yourself. I'm just merely suggesting it could be quite expensive for the corporate entity to have a significant portion of their employees dedicated to making things very difficult for management to answer to their shareholders. That's all.

Cheers,
Schwanker

 

[~~~^~~~]

Heyas,

Contracts are temporary, seniority is forever.

Nu

Then lets do the SLI first and vote on it.

What is an SCP? Sheeple Castration Process?

I agree with you. Looks very good from your perspective.

 

[NuGuy]

Then lets do the SLI first and vote on it.

What is an SCP? Sheeple Castration Process?

I agree with you. Looks very good from your perspective.

SCP = Single carrier petition. At PDT (then Henson), they screwed the pooch back in the early 90's...they had one in the bag, and let the mainline talk them out of it in exchange for "promises".

That's NOT the way to do it. You get it in the hand, THEN you force a resolution from a position of strength.

But back to our topic:

Just so I understand your position, why do you feel that the SLI and contract should be linked?

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nu,

ALPA looked at a SCP. The loss of the SCP at GoJets (which should have been a win) provided a strong indication that a SCP would not be successful for ASA. Delta's pilots were against it, politically.

Back to the topic.

My understanding is that the contract and the SLI are linked inasmuch as the contract will require our agreement to SLI methodology (negotiation, arbitration framework).

It would be my preference to have complete information to base a decision on, but I think we will deliberately be kept in the dark until after events have made an attempt to fight the SLI impossible.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of these joint negotiations. There are several priority items for the NWA MEC that I hope they (we) get.

 

[NuGuy]

Nu,

ALPA looked at a SCP. The loss of the SCP at GoJets (which should have been a win) provided a strong indication that a SCP would not be successful for ASA. Delta's pilots were against it, politically.

Back to the topic.

My understanding is that the contract and the SLI are linked inasmuch as the contract will require our agreement to SLI methodology (negotiation, arbitration framework).

It would be my preference to have complete information to base a decision on, but I think we will deliberately be kept in the dark until after events have made an attempt to fight the SLI impossible.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of these joint negotiations. There are several priority items for the NWA MEC that I hope they (we) get.

Heyas Fins,

Well, that's where you went wrong (at ASA). Who CARES what the DAL pilots thought (at the time). You take up an assessment, you hire some sharks, and you pursue the SCP DESPITE what ALPA or what other pilot groups think. You do what's in YOUR best interests. The time to have fought that battle was long before GoJets was even around. It SHOULD have been filed the day ASA was purchased by DAL.

But, that's water under the bridge.

Back to the joint contract. Both pilot groups get to vote on it. From what I understand, there are goodies from both sides, and DAL pilots will certainly have sweeteners, otherwise what's your motivation for ratifying it?

Seriously, you guys need to decide what LOA 19 is. Either it was a safety net (like what the "official" dalpa position says it is) and only a stop on the way to better things via a joint contract (which seems to be in progress) OR it is negotiating leverage against NWA pilots in an SLI, which is what you seem to want it to be.

Which is it?

Nu

 

[clippyrip]

Its a turd in a tuxedo...

 

[Noserider76]

I obviously don't have a grasp on the English language nearly as fluently (or is it fluidly) as yourself. I'm just merely suggesting it could be quite expensive for the corporate entity to have a significant portion of their employees dedicated to making things very difficult for management to answer to their shareholders. That's all.

Cheers,
Schwanker

As someone who never saw the value of this merger in the first place, and especially not for our pilot group, this may be the best chance to stop it. DL, and their shareholders will look over the fence and realize they don't want to hang with BOB and his friends. I would say with the business plan for the merger out the window with $130 oil it wouldn't take much for them to change their minds.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Seriously, you guys need to decide what LOA 19 is. Either it was a safety net (like what the "official" dalpa position says it is) and only a stop on the way to better things via a joint contract (which seems to be in progress)

It is that, and only that. I honestly can't see how anyone but the most emotionally blinded person looking for some evil in the Delta Empire can see anything but that. Zero leverage was gained in it except some extra cash if the NWA guys continue to play their standard game (I came from the NWA family, and grew up around NWA- I know the "way"). The pilot group at NWA is absolutely fantastic... It will be wonderful to get to fly with some of them, and they are in for a bit of a surprise when they see the difference in the culture over here (in a good way).

The fact is, it's a very different culture over here with a very different outlook. Even with all the cuts, people treat each other differently over here...it's much moreso a gentleman's operation as opposed to having to always watch your back.

I certainly hope it remains that way after we get some of the ninja managment on board...

 

[Superpilot92]

As someone who never saw the value of this merger in the first place, and especially not for our pilot group, this may be the best chance to stop it. DL, and their shareholders will look over the fence and realize they don't want to hang with BOB and his friends. I would say with the business plan for the merger out the window with $130 oil it wouldn't take much for them to change their minds.

There is no way the companies are going to just "back out" now. It would be VERY expensive to stop now. DAL NEEDS the money NWA brings to the deal in a very big way. Lets just hope we can get this Joint contract done so we can move forward. Once the joint contract is done we can move onto working on the SLI followed by arbitration IF the SLI is delayed. Before we know it we will all be on the same team bitchin about something else LMAO I cant wait :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

It is that, and only that. I honestly can't see how anyone but the most emotionally blinded person looking for some evil in the Delta Empire can see anything but that. Zero leverage was gained in it except some extra cash if the NWA guys continue to play their standard game (I came from the NWA family, and grew up around NWA- I know the "way").

The fact is, it's a very different culture over here with a very different outlook. Even with all the cuts, people treat each other differently over here...it's much moreso a gentleman's operation as opposed to having to always watch your back.

I certainly hope it remains that way after we get some of the ninja managment on board...

I think his comment was based on Fins suggesting we do the SLI first before the joint contract. If LOA 19 was a "bar" set for BOTH groups then why would anyone want to do the SLI first, knowing that COULD heat things up further. The joint contract SHOULD be done first because we can all agree on increased pay and QOL issues. The SLI will probably be more difficult to resolve hence why the joint contract should be done first so we are ALL on the same page regardless.

 

[800Dog]

There is no way the companies are going to just "back out" now. It would be VERY expensive to stop now. DAL NEEDS the money NWA brings to the deal in a very big way. Lets just hope we can get this Joint contract done so we can move forward. Once the joint contract is done we can move onto working on the SLI followed by arbitration IF the SLI is delayed. Before we know it we will all be on the same team bitchin about something else LMAO I cant wait :beer:

Have to disagree with you here. Someone posted DAL debt vs. NWA debt on the national forum and their #s said NWA has more debt than DAL. You could just as easily have said NWA NEEDS a more fuel efficient fleet in a very big way! NWA NEEDS more widebodies. NWA NEEDS higher pay. NWA NEEDS better management. NWA NEEDS better bases. You never seem to fail in finding a way to cut Delta down. When you insult DAL, you insult me and I have been very complimentary towards NWA and its pilot group. Ease up on the rhetoric and let things play out.

 

[Superpilot92]

Have to disagree with you here. Someone posted DAL debt vs. NWA debt on the national forum and their #s said NWA has more debt than DAL. You could just as easily have said NWA NEEDS a more fuel efficient fleet in a very big way! NWA NEEDS more widebodies. NWA NEEDS higher pay. NWA NEEDS better management. NWA NEEDS better bases. You never seem to fail in finding a way to cut Delta down. When you insult DAL, you insult me and I have been very complimentary towards NWA and its pilot group. Ease up on the rhetoric and let things play out.

Wait a minute, i dont ever cut Dal down and I dont post flamebait. I find it very hard to believe NWA has more debt than DAL as everything i have seen said opposite of that. It was also announced recently that NWA was either the 1st or 2nd place on the "most fuel efficient internationa carrier" list. Without the 9's NWA would have one of the youngest fleets in the business. I will be the first to tell you i am the last one to cut down you or any DAL pilot, except maybe GL . I have heard Anderson say DAL needs the cash that NWA brings to the table. No flame or rhetoric from me boss, i am on your/our team!!:beer: No disrespect meant 800dog we both bring alot to the table.

 

[800Dog]

Wait a minute, i dont ever cut Dal down and I dont post flamebait. I find it very hard to believe NWA has more debt than DAL as everything i have seen said opposite of that. It was also announced recently that NWA was either the 1st or 2nd place on the "most fuel efficient internationa carrier" list. Without the 9's NWA would have one of the youngest fleets in the business. I will be the first to tell you i am the last one to cut down you or any DAL pilot, except maybe GL . I have heard Anderson say DAL needs the cash that NWA brings to the table. No flame or rhetoric from me boss, i am on your/our team!!:beer: No disrespect meant 800dog we both bring alot to the table.

SupaP, no worries, 1st round is still on me. A DAL guy, initials RC posted about one week ago on the national forum both NWA and DAL debts looking forward. His info said NWA had more debt. I have no idea nor do I care enough to take the time out of my life to look into it. My point was, we can spend all day defending why one airline brings more to the table than the other. It is pointless as both have pros and cons. I believe the hat is optional with you guys which is a very HUGE PRO for me. Lets just get it done and make some $$!!

 

[Superpilot92]

SupaP, no worries, 1st round is still on me. My point was, we can spend all day defending why one airline brings more to the table than the other. It is pointless as both have pros and cons. I believe the hat is optional with you guys which is a very HUGE PRO for me. Lets just get it done and make some $$!!

Couldnt agree more!! I just posted the same thing to Fins. We could argue our points back and forth all day long but we have all already done that over and over, its pointless because we are all going to see things a little differently and we all have valid points. Right now we just need to move forward and make this one Solid pilot group and move forward as one he11 of an airline!!

 

[PlaneDrvr]

SupaP, no worries, 1st round is still on me. A DAL guy, initials RC posted about one week ago on the national forum both NWA and DAL debts looking forward. His info said NWA had more debt. I have no idea nor do I care enough to take the time out of my life to look into it. My point was, we can spend all day defending why one airline brings more to the table than the other. It is pointless as both have pros and cons. I believe the hat is optional with you guys which is a very HUGE PRO for me. Lets just get it done and make some $$!!

Don't work for either company, don't have a dog in this fight; just trying to provide the figures, for what its worth.

From the 1Qtr. balance sheet results (just taking 'longterm debt' #s, not other payables/debt)

Total Longterm Debt:

DAL: 8.8 Bil.
NWA: 6.6 Bil.

Also, NWA does show more 'cash' on its Bal. sheet than DAL, about $1Bil. more than DAL (3.6B for NWA compared to 2.5B for DAL). Not bad considering NWA is smaller.

For what its worth.

PD

P.S. I am not sure, but I believe that DAL has a Big chunk of its Longterm debt coming due in like 2010, that has to be either, 'turned over/re-financed, or paid off). Again, not sure, maybe someone can look that up.

 

[General Lee]

Wait a minute, i dont ever cut Dal down and I dont post flamebait. I find it very hard to believe NWA has more debt than DAL as everything i have seen said opposite of that. It was also announced recently that NWA was either the 1st or 2nd place on the "most fuel efficient internationa carrier" list. Without the 9's NWA would have one of the youngest fleets in the business. I will be the first to tell you i am the last one to cut down you or any DAL pilot, except maybe GL . I have heard Anderson say DAL needs the cash that NWA brings to the table. No flame or rhetoric from me boss, i am on your/our team!!:beer: No disrespect meant 800dog we both bring alot to the table.

Would Anderson like to have an additional $3 billion in cash NWA would bring to the table? Sure he would. Cash is king during this downturn. Together we would have somewhere between $6-7 billion in cash. The more cash you have, the better. If he can park a bunch of RJs too, then we will save even more.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Would Anderson like to have an additional $3 billion in cash NWA would bring to the table? Sure he would. Cash is king during this downturn. Together we would have somewhere between $6-7 billion in cash. The more cash you have, the better. If he can park a bunch of RJs too, then we will save even more.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree and thanks for the reasonable response I look forward to you buying my beer!!:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Don't work for either company, don't have a dog in this fight; just trying to provide the figures, for what its worth.

From the 1Qtr. balance sheet results (just taking 'longterm debt' #s, not other payables/debt)

Total Longterm Debt:

DAL: 8.8 Bil.
NWA: 6.6 Bil.

Also, NWA does show more 'cash' on its Bal. sheet than DAL, about $1Bil. more than DAL (3.6B for NWA compared to 2.5B for DAL). Not bad considering NWA is smaller.

For what its worth.

PD

P.S. I am not sure, but I believe that DAL has a Big chunk of its Longterm debt coming due in like 2010, that has to be either, 'turned over/re-financed, or paid off). Again, not sure, maybe someone can look that up.

Thanks for posting, thats the same info i had seen recently.

 

[Noserider76]

Don't work for either company, don't have a dog in this fight; just trying to provide the figures, for what its worth.

From the 1Qtr. balance sheet results (just taking 'longterm debt' #s, not other payables/debt)

Total Longterm Debt:

DAL: 8.8 Bil.
NWA: 6.6 Bil.

Also, NWA does show more 'cash' on its Bal. sheet than DAL, about $1Bil. more than DAL (3.6B for NWA compared to 2.5B for DAL). Not bad considering NWA is smaller.

For what its worth.

PD

P.S. I am not sure, but I believe that DAL has a Big chunk of its Longterm debt coming due in like 2010, that has to be either, 'turned over/re-financed, or paid off). Again, not sure, maybe someone can look that up.

You need to look at debt vs revenue. DL had 50% more revenue in 2007 (19.2B vs 12.5B for NW). DL and NW have about the same short-term debt load. DL has a lower long-term debt load than NW. 2010 is the largest year for DL with about 1.8B due. Refied or paid down will depend on the circumstances at the time.