Compass?

[Monster Buck]

Buck,

• You got to start somewhere to get ALPA looking at unity and ending alter ego.
• Getting them below you - protects you when the DC9/88's are parked due to fuel
• Compass operates the DC9 replacements
• If Compass pilots recieved a real seniority number the quality (attitude, professionalism, product) would be better than at some airlines where folks just don't care
• It will be some time for Compass First Officers to make Captain and flow up. They will have time and experience commensurate with NWA's current new hires by the time they get to "mainline"
• One list means one MEC, no representational squabbles that aren't fixed "in house"
• And did I mention that they are flying NWA's DC9 flying?
• Wouldn't you like NWA's DC9 pilots to have something to bid on other than your seat?
• Since Compass has the allowance for the big and heavy RJ's, this would move the line in the sand back in mainline's favor. It would make the 100 seater a clearly mainline product.

You mean different big and heavy rj that are some how meaningfully different than Mesaba's and Pinn.'s

??? Absolutely no different than the 900's at Mesaba and Pinn. Same speed, first class and coach seats, fly just as far, do the exact same flyng.....Absolutely no different. Also we don't have to wait for the FO's to get experienced, Mesaba and Pinnacle have had that for years now with(experience and quality) or do you dissagree? This will have NO effect on alter egos. They don't stop by ending one, they stop by NOT CREATING ONE.

How compass gets treated will have Absolutely no affect or line in the sand on mainline doing 76 flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well, the E175 is the largest and heaviest, requiring it's own little scope niche to be carved out in the contract.

But, if your point is that other's should be extended the secret handshake on to a combined list, I agree.

ALPA will never go along with a whack job on a regional member. It just is not going to happen when the union owes a regional and a mainline pilot the same duty of representation. The only way to decrease the number of alter ego carriers is merging.

And yes, getting that flying on the list (even if at a different carrier) moves the line in favor of mainline.

How did Rome conquer the known World? By making other folks Romans. They only lost their power when they focused too much on the top.

 

[Lear70]

ALPA will never go along with a whack job on a regional member. It just is not going to happen when the union owes a regional and a mainline pilot the same duty of representation. The only way to decrease the number of alter ego carriers is merging.

You seem to think that ALPA has ANY say over whether a combined NWA/DAL divests itself of any of its regional partners.

NWA and DAL could pull the trigger on canceling a non-wholly-owned's ASA at ANY time if they are in default (as PCL is now) OR by paying the penalty to the carrier to cease operations early per their ASA.

They could shut down a wholly-owned carrier at ANY time... here's the big hint: THEY OWN IT. They can do anything they want with it, including writing off the loss BUT, since they'd be liable for that to the shareholders, I submit the wholly-owneds are a lot safer than the individual carriers who are in default.

Merging is NOT the only way to decrease the number of alter-ego carriers. You're dead wrong on this one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lear:

Of course, just like Delta can park DC9's. What's your point? I'd like to get the DC9 replacements on "the" list. This used to be the goal of the old and unfashionable ALPA merger and fragmentation policy.

Worked then, works to avoid NWA and DAL being alter ego's of each other and it works now. Again, what's your point?

What is the other way to reduce, or eliminate alter ego carriers? Hope management fixes the problem for you?

Hope management choses a 50 year old design over the most recent and efficient replacement aircraft that they already have on order? Come on....

We calculate aircraft performance, balanced field length and train to ensure nothing is left to chance. Then we negotiate contracts and hope....?

What if AirTran's LOA had gone through and Wholly Owned CritterII was operating 90 seat RJs? Would you want them on your list, below your 717 drivers?

(BTW - good luck with that mess. Sounds like a screw job. Either that, or hope something better comes along.)

 

[~~~^~~~]

You seem to think that ALPA has ANY say over whether a combined NWA/DAL divests itself of any of its regional partners.

ALPA does have a say. Scope can make the airplanes uneconomical to operate by restricting origin airports, leg length and other tools. Negotiating contracts (now) that limited operations to 50 seats would have the same effect. Even if a mainline MEC had the power to negotiate such terms, ALPA national can't go along without the consent of the regional's MEC without risking a credible DFR suit.

In many ways, once scope is sold you can't get it back without a merger.

Of course ALPA owes no duty to non ALPA members and some think the solution is to leave ALPA. I'm not in that camp.

 

[Monster Buck]

There is no argument about alter ego's. None of us want it. Almost everyone(not all) would rather have the 70ish flying at mainline. This thread is about Compass's treatment. If its about 70ish flying. Bring it all on to mainline and ALL of the pilots that come with them from all the NWA and DELTA commuters that fly them that WANT to come. No cherry picking from just one(especially Compass) they are no more deserving than any of the rest. If the fight was JUST 70 ish flying there might be a chance....but (not that this isn't very important)this is a merger between NWA and Delta with hundreds of parts, not just 70ish flying.

 

[Quack]

Nothing against compass but..........the vast majority are new pilots with very little experience. Again it is nothing more than a regional like any other. They should not have any more leg up in a merger than any other regional. There pilots are no more NWA pilots than any other red tail commuter.

Although I don't really know what's going to happen because that will be left up to the mainline MEC's and aribitrator, I do think that you are mistaken implying Compass pilots lack any experience. Most of the pilot group has come from regional backgrounds where they were either captains already, or very long time FOs. We also have quite a few guys furloughed from other majors. So to think that we're all a bunch of fresh out of college pilot wannabe's is a huge misunderstanding.

 

[Monster Buck]

Although I don't really know what's going to happen because that will be left up to the mainline MEC's and aribitrator, I do think that you are mistaken implying Compass pilots lack any experience. Most of the pilot group has come from regional backgrounds where they were either captains already, or very long time FOs. We also have quite a few guys furloughed from other majors. So to think that we're all a bunch of fresh out of college pilot wannabe's is a huge misunderstanding.

Ok I hear ya. I should not have put in that first line. I will take your word that the majority are very experienced. But I will stand by the rest of my point. Not as a reference to prior experience, but your most junior numbered pilot at Compass would put you at about ten years of seniority at Mesaba flying as a NWA commuter. Compass doesn't hold any special cards to NWA pilot slots over the other red tail commuters for this merger. IMHO


BTW I don't have anything against "fresh out of college" and I don't consider them wannabees. Most of us in the commuters are or were. I just don't think that Compass deserves any special treatment over the rest.

 

[DashTrash400]

Buck, I don't think it's that Compass pilots have any special claim to NWA numbers over Mesaba or Pinnacle (especially Mesaba)... it's moreso that Compass would be the least messy to integrate as *all* we operate are the 76 seaters that could be folded back into mainline. If you folded in Mesaba, would just the CRJ-900s and their pilots come back to mainline, or the CRJ-200s as well? How bout the Saabs? Think mgmt would really agree to that? How bout the pilot group?

Compass is essentially the "least out of the bag." Being represented my NWA's MEC makes it easier. Hopefully this would be a first step toward bringing all wholly-owned regionals into mainline and starting to undo the scope clu$terfuc|<

 

[Lear70]

Compass is essentially the "least out of the bag." Being represented my NWA's MEC makes it easier. Hopefully this would be a first step toward bringing all wholly-owned regionals into mainline and starting to undo the scope clu$terfuc|<

Why would NWA have ANY interest in doing that? Or DAL for that matter.

Senior management uses the regionals to whipsaw each other to keep compensation rates down. Why would they have ANY interest in helping fix OUR problems when it runs counter to their bottom line?

If Compass is absorbed, it will only be a result of the inflexibility of the DAL pilots to allow those aircraft under Scope. Last I heard, DAL wanted that scope relief specifically for that reason (and others - the 50-seater is not going to be around much longer).

Anyone who thinks the regionals will EVER be absorbed into mainline is living in a pipe dream; that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

[FL510in10min]

THat would be the way to prevent a whipsaw

 

[DashTrash400]

Why would NWA have ANY interest in doing that? Or DAL for that matter.

Senior management uses the regionals to whipsaw each other to keep compensation rates down. Why would they have ANY interest in helping fix OUR problems when it runs counter to their bottom line?

If Compass is absorbed, it will only be a result of the inflexibility of the DAL pilots to allow those aircraft under Scope. Last I heard, DAL wanted that scope relief specifically for that reason (and others - the 50-seater is not going to be around much longer).

Anyone who thinks the regionals will EVER be absorbed into mainline is living in a pipe dream; that ship sailed a long time ago.

I'm not saying it will ever happen, I'm pretty doubtful that a *single* regional (CPS) will get folded back into mainline. I'm saying it would be a step in the right direction...there hasn't been a step in the right direction on scope in a long, long time.

 

[DrewBlows]

Buck, I don't think it's that Compass pilots have any special claim to NWA numbers over Mesaba or Pinnacle (especially Mesaba)... it's moreso that Compass would be the least messy to integrate as *all* we operate are the 76 seaters that could be folded back into mainline. If you folded in Mesaba, would just the CRJ-900s and their pilots come back to mainline, or the CRJ-200s as well? How bout the Saabs? Think mgmt would really agree to that? How bout the pilot group?

Compass is essentially the "least out of the bag." Being represented my NWA's MEC makes it easier. Hopefully this would be a first step toward bringing all wholly-owned regionals into mainline and starting to undo the scope clu$terfuc|<

Compass does have a claim to NWA "numbers" ahead of Pinnacle and Mesaba. A contract has been negotiated that says the first 20 pilots hired at NWA must be Compass flow ups. Of coarse the flow ups must be eligible and there are limitations (half the Captains on the list in a rolling 12 month period). This doesn't entitle Compass pilots to anything other than what has already been negotiated.

Compass' flow though agreement will have to be addressed in the merger. I don't really care what happens, but I don't want to be thrown under the bus. If flow through is ended it has to be ended on both ends and flow downs must be removed from the Compass list. This wouldn't be good for anyone.

 

[HA25]

That lone fact my be a sticking point. Either way I am more than happy to have you put on the bottom of the list. I would have been happy with a staple when I was at ASA. It is a great way to protect all of the flying and in turn protect the careers that we have chosen.

When I was there back in the late 90's I tried my hardest to convince guys like John B and others of the merit of that idea.. I was more or less railroaded out of there for being "Pro-Delta"..

I agree a staple ends the whipsaw and makes it easier to bring the wages up for everyone with one contract.

 

[HA25]

Nothing against compass but..........the vast majority are new pilots with very little experience. Again it is nothing more than a regional like any other. They should not have any more leg up in a merger than any other regional. There pilots are no more NWA pilots than any other red tail commuter.

Don't know about who Compass has been hiring before, but as of recently they're getting 23000hour ATA captains and A320 & MD11 type rated pilots.. but that's probably a sign of the times more than anything else!