A letter to Leo

[jetflier]

This was letter sent to me and I'm posting it here so that an intelligent discussion may happen on FI...

"I am sure you don�t remember me but we met during the NWA strike. I was the xxxxxx on the SPC.

Lee, you have more than disappointed me concerning your handling of your fellow association pilots here at NWA. I consider your actions to be treasonous and divisive in moving forward as a group. No matter how you attempt to spin it, if your LOA 19 is passed you have permanently disenfranchised the NWA pilots which will only perpetuate a severely disharmonious group that will falter with associated infighting for decades.

In the process, your attempts to solidify pre-merger Delta pilot�s position over NWA pilots will severely damage this association as a whole. You have ruined which had the possibility of being one of the strongest opponents to management ALPA has ever seen. You have fallen right into management�s hands and created disunity among this potentially powerful group. There is nothing but internal strife ahead for all of us if this merger does in fact go through in its present form. There is long road in front of all of us and I believe you have sorely underestimated NWA pilot�s resolve and its stubborn indignation.

I hope you enjoy your paragraph in Flying the Line Lee. I do not think history will look kindly on your lack of integrity to your fellow ALPA pilots.

�Strode to the podium dressed in a crisp airline captain's uniform and unabashedly soaked up the applause� by management! Pretty much says it all Lee.

No return response desired.

XXXXXXXXXXX
NWA ALPA Pilot"

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

So, because you can't negotiate your own pay raise, I can't have one either? WTFO?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Prater has gone on record to say he is going to sign LOA 19 because it sets a floor for future pay negotiations.

He also has stated that NWA should have parity on day one of a joint agreement.

That makes sense. He also wrote that ALPA National will provide mediation to help the sides get together before going down the road to outside arbitration.

Guys, think for yourself and don't just buy into the propraganda. Leadership is not just pointing and calling names.

Everything considered at the present time, ALPA is doing a good job.

 

[Fly4hire]

So, because you can't negotiate your own pay raise, I can't have one either? WTFO?

Actually WE had negotiated a better JOINT contract, but Moak wanted it only at the cost of buying it with a disproportionate, lopsided SLI that negated any advantage of the joint contract.

One of your favourite sound bites de'jour is the NWA pilots are costing you money - you are costing yourselves money with lopsided propsals that will never pass muster with our MEC.

You say the train is leaving the station with or without us - given that we don't know the destination, and it might well be a train "to the east" that's just fine if it goes without us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4hire:

Where do you want to see this go? What do you want? What are your solutions?

Lets make you Lee Moak for a day. What would you do?

 

[737 Pylt]

Actually WE had negotiated a better JOINT contract, but Moak wanted it only at the cost of buying it with a disproportionate, lopsided SLI that negated any advantage of the joint contract.

No, what we had was the NWA MEC's failure to move on DOH and walk away from the negotiating table!
<see how easy it is to make false accusations?>
It gets nowhere!

One of your favourite sound bites de'jour is the NWA pilots are costing you money - you are costing yourselves money with lopsided propsals that will never pass muster with our MEC.

Nothing ever passes muster with your MEC, that's why you guys always go to arbitration. It sure is easier to pass the buck then to actually do what you're elected to do

You say the train is leaving the station with or without us - given that we don't know the destination, and it might well be a train "to the east" that's just fine if it goes without us.

See you later then!

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

You say the train is leaving the station with or without us - given that we don't know the destination, and it might well be a train "to the east" that's just fine if it goes without us.

Just barking at the train as it goes by has no effect on it's operation.
Running out in front of the train has a predictable result.
The only way to go anywhere is to jump on board.

 

[737 Pylt]

Just barking at the train as it goes by has no effect on it's operation.
Running out in front of the train has a predictable result.
The only way to go anywhere is to jump on board.

But then where will that leave them in the blame game?

737

 

[Fly4hire]

Fly4hire:

Where do you want to see this go? What do you want? What are your solutions?

Lets make you Lee Moak for a day. What would you do?

1) Recognize that the NWA pilots bring substantial strengths to the combined airline - that we are a far stronger pilot group working together than we are as separate parts. Stop selectively dismissing acft assets and positions, and vilifying the NWA pilot group, and as a pretext for pillaging it. While DAL Inc. is aquiring NWA Inc., DALPA is still merging the SL with NWALPA.

2) Acknowledge that DAL is only slightly more than 20% larger than NWA, and this is very much a merger of equals. Stop pursuing a SLI that gives DAL an almost 48% advantage and gets more so over time.

3) Pursue an SLI that will provide for long term unity to capitalize on the strength of the unity of the combined group as opposed to pursuing short term gains at the expense of future strength.

4) Understand I have struck a faustian bargain with RA on LOA 19, and the only way out is to work together with the NWA MEC.

5) Do the honorable thing and back off from some the unrealistic promises made in order to facilitate the deal, then fall on a grenade (resign) in order to save face and your legacy.

 

[michael707767]

2) Acknowledge that DAL is only slightly more than 20% larger than NWA, and this is very much a merger of equals. Stop pursuing a SLI that gives DAL an almost 48% advantage and gets more so over time.

please tell me how any proposal, even a straight percentage merger, gives the DL pilots a 48% advantage.

 

[JOPILOT]

Finally voted YES for LOA 19, reasoning is our LEC informed me on a recent 4 day we flew that NWA pilots will be given contract parity at the day of Corporate Closure and that the list will most likely go to arbitration at that point. Why not save the improvements as a base for our joint contract and let the SLI fall where it may, probably not to NWA MEC's liking, but it will be "fair" right?

JP

 

[Noserider76]

1) Recognize that the NWA pilots bring substantial strengths to the combined airline - that we are a far stronger pilot group working together than we are as separate parts. Stop selectively dismissing acft assets and positions, and vilifying the NWA pilot group, and as a pretext for pillaging it. While DAL Inc. is aquiring NWA Inc., DALPA is still merging the SL with NWALPA.

2) Acknowledge that DAL is only slightly more than 20% larger than NWA, and this is very much a merger of equals. Stop pursuing a SLI that gives DAL an almost 48% advantage and gets more so over time.

3) Pursue an SLI that will provide for long term unity to capitalize on the strength of the unity of the combined group as opposed to pursuing short term gains at the expense of future strength.

4) Understand I have struck a faustian bargain with RA on LOA 19, and the only way out is to work together with the NWA MEC.

5) Do the honorable thing and back off from some the unrealistic promises made in order to facilitate the deal, then fall on a grenade (resign) in order to save face and your legacy.

The blame seems to be coming strictly from your side of the fence. Time to move on. Now you (and us) seem to be making arguements only to better position yourself in the SLI. Understandable. You say you want a fair SLI. So do I. The problem is that fairness is in the eye of the beholder. What you think is fair, I see as a screw job and vice versa. The issues have been hashed and rehashed.

We'll all be pissed when the results are out but at least your side we'll be getting very large pay raises. How we handle ourselves when we're pissed off will determine whether this is a good place to work or just a job.

 

[Jet Wash]

Actually WE had negotiated a better JOINT contract, but Moak wanted it only at the cost of buying it with a disproportionate, lopsided SLI that negated any advantage of the joint contract.

One of your favourite sound bites de'jour is the NWA pilots are costing you money - you are costing yourselves money with lopsided propsals that will never pass muster with our MEC.

You say the train is leaving the station with or without us - given that we don't know the destination, and it might well be a train "to the east" that's just fine if it goes without us.

How do you know this? No one actually knows (except the people directly involved in negotiations) what each side was offering. It seems in the best interests of both pilot groups to have a higher starting point to negotiate a joint contract (ie, Delta guys passing LOA 19). In the long run, both pilot groups benefit from LOA 19.

 

[whyfly]

Fly4Hire,are you sure?

Do you know with absolute certainty what the SLI positions were?
I have heard a multitude of versions with differing spin DEPENDING from whose side they originated.
Like most things in life I doubt the REAL,100%, story is being told. Most likely the truth is somewhere in the middle.
It appears the only certainty is a merger and two pilot groups who will have to coexist for years and for some of us decades.
I choose not to fester over this because life is TOO short . How do you want to live your life ????

 

[Fly4hire]

please tell me how any proposal, even a straight percentage merger, gives the DL pilots a 48% advantage.

Simple - it never was a straight percentage ratio - when double standards for staffing, WB numbers, aircraft options, and credit for 1000 DAL pilots not yet hired were used to staff not yet ordered aircraft you give yourself a larger effective list to do the SLI with.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Who's Leo?

 

[Fly4hire]

The blame seems to be coming strictly from your side of the fence.

Well of course - you are defending a windfall.

What you think is fair, I see as a screw job and vice versa. The issues have been hashed and rehashed.

Rehashed but not resolved.

DAL is ~20% larger than our pilot group and I expect you to enjoy ~a 20% SLI advantage. I expect to lose something in the SLI.

What I do not expect and will not accept is a ~50% advantage DAL at the expense of NRD future careers

We'll all be pissed when the results are out but at least your side we'll be getting very large pay raises.

Pay raises are temporary - if oil stays where it is it will be very temporary. SLI is forever.

 

[RedRum]

So, because you can't negotiate your own pay raise, I can't have one either? WTFO?

Capt,

No, we could not negotiate our own pay raise because you have to look at who we are dealing with. Northwest Airlines management no longer has any dog in this fight. We tried to approach them and they basically told us we were on our own.

All this being said, you guys secured your future with YOUR management and took advantage of the process. If the shoe were on the other foot, NWA pilots would not have done this. I can honestly say this. Partly due to the fact that our management team has never done any favors for us.

So when is Lee Moak up for his position on the DAL Board of Directors? He really dissapointed a lot of people here at NWA. Has your membership tried to inhibit his move to management? I would be willing to bet that any such effort to prevent Moak's "upgrade" to the BOD would be met with a lot of resistance on his part. He is laying the foundation right now and breaking down solidarity within this association of pilots.

I still see the next 2 days as a golden opportunity to get this thing back in the right direction. Hopefully all Letter 19 was intended to do is leverage us back into more direct negotiations. We, at NWA, have a lot to bring to the table and we are not a US Airways-type company. We aren't drawing a line in the sand and we don't want to create a windfall. We just want what is fair. Heck we are coming out ahead right off the bat getting rid of Doug Steenland. We are bringing $3 BIL to the table. $3BIL in blood money extracted from contract employees on our last TA.

Just my honest opinion. Like i said, it's nothing personal. I hope we can get something done in the next 2 weeks.

 

[RedRum]

Finally voted YES for LOA 19, reasoning is our LEC informed me on a recent 4 day we flew that NWA pilots will be given contract parity at the day of Corporate Closure and that the list will most likely go to arbitration at that point. Why not save the improvements as a base for our joint contract and let the SLI fall where it may, probably not to NWA MEC's liking, but it will be "fair" right?

JP

JP,

The reason we are opposed to the merger in its present form is that on the Date of Corporate Closure we will both be operating under separate working agreements? There will be NO pay parity until we come up with a joint contract.

Whoever informed you that we would be brought to pay parity is just not giving you the straight facts. I understand why you voted yes. You are securing your future for your family and your career at Delta. I can't even begin to blame you for voting yes. If it were me I would have voted yes too. HOWEVER, it should have never come down to this if both sides felt the same about securing the futures of both pilot groups. I don't expect your group to simply vote no and walk away from guaranteed mid-contract imporovements. It is just not realistic to believe that would happen.

Again, just hope Letter 19 never comes to pass and we can get a joint agreement by the end of the month.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Pay raises are temporary - if oil stays where it is it will be very temporary. SLI is forever.

And that is why I am hoping we drag this SLI as long as possible. I believe this fall with oil above 100$ a barrel, A/C will be parked, lots more than planned, along with pilots. I do not want to be in a list with DC9s in it.

If we complete the SLI by christmas it would be a fair indication of actual list of possible furloughs, anytime before then, NWA will benefit a great deal.

I just hope this SLI will include furloughs totally connected to type of A/C parked. Example: 15% of A/C parked are NWA. 15% of furloughs will come from NWA pilots and viceversa. I don't think anybody can dispute that.

I also don't understand why NWA piltos will get pay parity. They should not get anything they haven't negotiated themselves. After all this is DALPA deal for DAL pilots, if NWALPA wants a deal, work it out on your own, or play nice and let us get a great contract together.

 

[FBN0223]

I just hope this SLI will include furloughs totally connected to type of A/C parked. Example: 15% of A/C parked are NWA. 15% of furloughs will come from NWA pilots and viceversa. I don't think anybody can dispute that.

If that's is your position, then advancements with NWA aircraft orders should be solely on the NWA side. In other words, when the B787 arrives Delta pilots would be ineligible to bid any B787 positions.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DAL is ~20% larger than our pilot group and I expect you to enjoy ~a 20% SLI advantage. I expect to lose something in the SLI.

What does that mean? Please explain it in terms so simple even a former tailwheel pilot can understand.

It would seem like relative seniority was a 0% advantage for either side on SLI.

Then there other issues:

• Delta's larger number of retirements
• Delta's fleet or larger, better paying, aircraft
• NWA's fleet of DC9's and prior announcements to replace them with RJ's
• Northwest's earlier retirements, by 3 to 5 years

I still have not found any precedent for NWA's dynamic seniority idea, other than the way they kept Howard the Duck in a cage for 20 years. Even so, then benefit to you of a "dynamic list" hinges on whether there will be enough movement for you to hold Captain in your desired equipment before the other side's dynamic movement overcomes yours and you stagnate.

Also, how do you balance the stagnation? If there is a aircraft retirement along with the other side's stagnation you get a seniority/equipment inversion that gets real ugly if there are displacements. It would be hard for the Company to accept such a solution and hard for the pilots involved.

In your responses to being Lee Moak for a day, you do realize that he has already acted on 3 of your suggestions in writing. I'm still trying to figure out your SLI position which might make it 4 of 5.

With regard to "promises" which promises do you refer to? Keeping Delta pilots' seniority intact? Can you elaborate on the promises?

I'm not yanking your chain... it is good that you get on the board and we can compare notes on what each other are thinking, what you think is fair. It is a useful exchange to learn new things and manage expectations. Really, how would you do the SLI? Dynamic with Ratio's, relative seniority?

I'd like relative seniority by AC type based on what max equipment you could hold currently at your airline. Your turn.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Well of course - you are defending a windfall.

Well, I for one saw the ACTUAL NWALPA proposal and the DALPA proposal. Don't ask me how but, I did. I am not bound by any non-disclosure agreements so I guess I can spout off a little. So, here goes...

With the DALPA proposal I would be at +/- 0% of my present prosition. No change.

With the NWALPA proposal I would be at -.97% of my current position. Almost one percent decrease in overall seniority. But, I am near the bottom so the bottom I will still be.

However, with the NWAPLA SLI, the top 400 were all NWA. The next 400 were DAL. After that most of the next 8000ish were +6% for NWA and -6% for DAL. The bottom 2000 were almost all DAL with a few NWA such as the recent new-hires.

I think the windfall was squarely with NWA on that one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Capt.

Thank you for your confirmation of what everyone else has been saying, but has not seen.

Also agree with your opinion.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Capt.

Thank you for your confirmation of what everyone else has been saying, but has not seen.

Also agree with your opinion.

Problem is, no one will believe me anyway.

 

[michael707767]

Problem is, no one will believe me anyway.

I believe you. One of my LEC reps, who also saw both proposals, told me almost exactly the same thing about the NWA position. Our last position was defendable and the NWA position was such an incredible windfall for the NWA pilots it's no wonder Lee walked away. He should have.

 

[Meiguy]

I just hope this SLI will include furloughs totally connected to type of A/C parked. Example: 15% of A/C parked are NWA. 15% of furloughs will come from NWA pilots and viceversa. I don't think anybody can dispute that.

I understand your position here but that wouldn't work. With a combined fleet the business plans change on both sides. If oil keeps going up and planes are parked they would come off the master fleet list. Ya the DC-9s may be parked first but 88's would be parked just as fast at DAL on a stand alone plan. So I don't think what your saying would be fair. What would be fair is a relative seniority list all the way to the bottom. If planes are parked on the combined fleet regardless of what type it is both sides should feel the negative effects.

 

[Fly4hire]

Well, I for one saw the ACTUAL NWALPA proposal and the DALPA proposal. Don't ask me how but, I did. I am not bound by any non-disclosure agreements so I guess I can spout off a little. So, here goes...

I think the windfall was squarely with NWA on that one.

I understand there were something like 5 actual proposals between the opener and the "take it or leave it"

EXACTLY which one did you see?

In our Road Show they showed both the graphical and numerical fallout of each proposal based on day 2, year 1, 5, 10, and 15.

The only one that advantaged NWA was DOH, that was never a serious consideration by either side.

 

[Superpilot92]

You guys just cant stop the BS can you? Its amazing that we are all in the same Union. When its all said and done will we not all be Delta airlines pilots hopefully fighting for the same things? Both sides need to stop fighting each other and the BS bickering is pointless.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

EXACTLY which one did you see?

The last one.