NWA Phantom retirements

[nwaredtail]

So far in 2008, 100 NWA pilots have retired and 37 have opted to stay past 60, with only 50% of those in Captain positions.

I thought Moak said no NWA pilots would retire?

 

[JohnQ]

So far in 2008, 100 NWA pilots have retired and 37 have opted to stay past 60, with only 50% of those in Captain positions.

I thought Moak said no NWA pilots would retire?

I'm not sure that he said that. But let me ask you this.

Do you think that there would have been 100 NWA retirements if they were assured of substantial pay raises, significant equity $$$, and a 14% DC contribution based on aforementioned significant pay hikes?

I am sure that some would still have retired, but I am also quite convinced that some would not have.

The problem is that we need a crystal ball, and don't have one. We just have a problem with NWA guys claiming a seniority stake based on retirements that may not happen.

On the other hand, you are certainly right not to expect to take a seniority hit based on a lack of retirements that may not happen.

 

[nwaredtail]

Do you think that there would have been 100 NWA retirements if they were assured of substantial pay raises, significant equity $$$, and a 14% DC contribution based on aforementioned significant pay hikes?

Don't care, facts are 100 guys left. PERIOD. Maybe more would have left if Moak wouldn't have walked away and agreed to less equity, pass raises, and rules for his pilots. He has tried to deflect blame for this, but the fact is, we all had more money before Moak left the room.

I am sure that some would still have retired, but I am also quite convinced that some would not have.

That is an opinion, not fact.

The problem is that we need a crystal ball, and don't have one. We just have a problem with NWA guys claiming a seniority stake based on retirements that may not happen.

Easily rectified, and you all would be surprised what was agreed to about that. Wait and see.

On the other hand, you are certainly right not to expect to take a seniority hit based on a lack of retirements that may not happen.

[/QUOTE]

Not sure I understand this.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Easily rectified, and you all would be surprised what was agreed to about that. Wait and see.

Also easily rectified, just tell us.

 

[nwaredtail]

Also easily rectified, just tell us.

The fact that DAL pilots are not aware of Moak's last offer to NWA is SCARYYYYYY.

I am very satisfied that the NWA retirement "issue" is being handles appropriately.

I suggest you contact Moak and ask him.

 

[JohnQ]

The fact that DAL pilots are not aware of Moak's last offer to NWA is SCARYYYYYY.

Kind of like how unaware the NWA guys are with your merger committee's first SLI integration proposal. You should call a rep and ask what it was. The answer certainly wouldn't convince you that your merger committee had "unity" on their minds.

 

[Superpilot92]

I'm not sure that he said that. But let me ask you this.

Do you think that there would have been 100 NWA retirements if they were assured of substantial pay raises, significant equity $$$, and a 14% DC contribution based on aforementioned significant pay hikes? Most could care less considering they have very nice pensions and a large amount of them have military retirements on top of that.

I am sure that some would still have retired, but I am also quite convinced that some would not have. Sure some Might stay for the potential equity and would leave shortly there after.

The problem is that we need a crystal ball, and don't have one. No you dont, even if all of them stayed to 65 they WILL retire and the seniority progression WILL be there. We just have a problem with NWA guys claiming a seniority stake based on retirements that may not happen. Yeah you're right they will never retire

On the other hand, you are certainly right not to expect to take a seniority hit based on a lack of retirements that may not happen.

Bottom line is NWA pilots have alot more seniority progression expected in the very near future more so than DAL even if everyone stayed to 65 (not going to happen). Thats why dynamic seniority is fair for everyone. That way we all keep the same progression in relative time that we expected as stand alone carriers. Time is money

 

[filejw]

FYI . Most of the guys staying past 60 are hoping for an equity payment from the merger other wise they would be gone.

 

[General Lee]

FYI . Most of the guys staying past 60 are hoping for an equity payment from the merger other wise they would be gone.

Can you get it in writing that ALL of your age 60 guys WILL leave and the document will stand up in a court of law? Otherwise, fogetaboutit.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Bottom line is NWA pilots have alot more seniority progression expected in the very near future more so than DAL even if everyone stayed to 65 (not going to happen). Thats why dynamic seniority is fair for everyone. That way we all keep the same progression in relative time that we expected as stand alone carriers. Time is money

Yet AGAIN, when we retired our 2000 or so senior Captains, we also parked our MD11s, 767-200s, 737-200s, and 737-300s. Our seniority progression after the retirements was minimal. How would your guys do if you right now parked all of the DC9s and 742s? You are NOT taking into account the loss of airplanes that likely will go away on your side. We shouldn't have to take a hit for your old planes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

Yet AGAIN, when we retired our 2000 or so senior Captains, we also parked our MD11s, 767-200s, 737-200s, and 737-300s. Our seniority progression after the retirements was minimal.

Some were parked and many were replaced. Same thing happened at NWA. We are both smaller than we were 4yrs ago. You did not lose 2000 pilot positions worth of aircraft. Maybe you'd like to make public the bid awards from that period? Is that why your management had retired pilots come back to fly because they were so short staffed with all the upgrade training going on and not enough pilots to fly the line?

How would your guys do if you right now parked all of the DC9s and 742s? You are NOT taking into account the loss of airplanes that likely will go away on your side. We shouldn't have to take a hit for your old planes.

That's as irrelevant as what would you do if all of your DC9-80's, which most are only slightly newer than our DC-9-50's were to be parked. The fact is our DC9 and 747-200's are not being parked past what has already been planned. RA says he plans to use them until a suitable 100 seat derivative acft is available.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The guys that are leaving are the ones that has the biggest pay out in the DB plan. As you start to move down your list the size of the payout will diminish as will the amount of retirements.
Was it not one of you that stated that the pension was great for only about 500 of your pilots and stunk for the rest. From what I have been told by many friends there, that is a correct statement.
Given those facts many of the less senior pilots turning 60 in the near future will not leave. You ratio of who will actually leave will not hold up. You know it was well as our respective MEC's.

Lets try a new argument, one that the lawyers cannot see straight through.
Of course there are two sides to every story and somewhere in the middle is the truth, but money is money and when your lump sum is not that big, you gotta stick around for the 200K+ a year in income and the 50K+ in retirement saving that you will get. The pilots retiring now had more to loose by not retiring than they did by staying. Look at the pay outs for the next 500 guys. It is not the same.

 

[filejw]

Can you get it in writing that ALL of your age 60 guys WILL leave and the document will stand up in a court of law? Otherwise, fogetaboutit.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Age 60 has nothing to do with it. When they do retire we want the benefit just like you did when your 2000 or so left before BK.

 

[AA717driver]

The Delta pilots on the property have already reaped the windfall from the retirements.

There was no mass exodus at NWA.

Anyone with any credibility want to dispute that?

Now, DALPA wants to try to sell an inferior SLI to the NWA people by telling them how much better their contract will be.

AA told the TWA people how much better their contract was, too. Scant comfort during the 3 1/2 years I was on the street.

Don't fall for it. TC

 

[PuffDriver]

The Delta pilots on the property have already reaped the windfall from the retirements.

There was no mass exodus at NWA.

Anyone with any credibility want to dispute that?

Now, DALPA wants to try to sell an inferior SLI to the NWA people by telling them how much better their contract will be.

AA told the TWA people how much better their contract was, too. Scant comfort during the 3 1/2 years I was on the street.

Don't fall for it. TC

We "reaped" nothing. The earlies were bought and paid for, through the loss of our DB plan. NWA still has theirs, albeit frozen.

We are not trying to "sell" anything. WE are making the best of a bad situation by gaining some contractual improvements. It is going through memrat as we speak. Should it fail, our MEC is back to the drawing board with a few options up to and including opposing the merger.

It is funny how Delta guys are being painted as the bad guys here. We are not the ones who are whining and crying about stagnation, we were the ones who came into SLI and contract discussions. We were not the ones who came in from day 1 looking for arbitration. We were not the ones who had to replace a member of our negotiating committee, nor did we have to have multiple witnesses in the room to make sure that our guys were doing their jobs.

We DID agree to a NWA proposed SLI, only to have them pull the offer because they had not thought the matter through themselves. In short, the "hicks" from the south have their act together, and the red tails have their tails between their legs out on the road doing spin control. One group has road shows making excuses, the other did something about it and is having road shows in order to inform its membership where we go from here.

You want credit for a few guys who MIGHT retire? Pullease. It's coming. The day of, oh s*&t, maybe we should have taken the first offer.

You TWA guys make me laugh, you sound like the PanAM guys. It was a sh*&^y deal for you, no doubt. Get over it and move on with your life. Or complain about it on an anonymous BB for the rest of your life, I don't really care. It has nothing to do with this deal.

 

[nwaredtail]

We "reaped" nothing. The earlies were bought and paid for, through the loss of our DB plan. NWA still has theirs, albeit frozen.

So, we kept our frozen DB, therefore we should get it shoved to us on the SLI? O.K., got it.

We were not the ones who had to replace a member of our negotiating committee, nor did we have to have multiple witnesses in the room to make sure that our guys were doing their jobs.

Puff, you are a LIAR!. Our merger committee is the same as day 1. Again, PUFFDRIVR is a LIAR. The multiple witness's were the advisory committee put together to make sure all seniority levels had a say. It's a little more democratic than having Moak in a room by himself making deals he has yet to tell the DAL pilots about.

We DID agree to a NWA proposed SLI, only to have them pull the offer because they had not thought the matter through themselves.

Again, Puff is a liar. Give me the proposal number, date and with merger committee members were there for the accepted proposal.

In short, the "hicks" from the south have their act together, and the red tails have their tails between their legs out on the road doing spin control.

Yup, agreeing to reduced contract improvements was really smart. Thank Moak for that.

You want credit for a few guys who MIGHT retire? Pullease.

You better give Moak a call about this.

 

[DTW320]

You are NOT taking into account the loss of airplanes that likely will go away on your side. We shouldn't have to take a hit for your old planes.

Once again (how many times has it been now?) YOU are NOT taking into account that it is the DALPA SCOPE CLAUSE, or lack thereof, that ALLOWS those airplanes to go away! What don't you get about that? NWALPA scope prevents those aircraft from being parked without parking RJ's enmass. How many RJ's wil DAL have to park if the new DAL parks the airplanes you are talking about? ZERO. Our guys need to pay the price for your PATHETIC scope?! YGBSM.

Or, as you like to say: fogetaboutit!!!( I doubt you are either Italian OR from Jersey)

 

[PuffDriver]

So, we kept our frozen DB, therefore we should get it shoved to us on the SLI? O.K., got it.

Typical blue collar response. You are not getting anything SHOVED on you. What you want is some sort of OK to account for retirements that MIGHT happen with the list. Never mind that we got rid of 4 aircraft types at the same time to offset that. Never mind that the majority of those guys would have been gone prior to December anyway, another bunch were on LTD. Don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. In reality, we benefitted from about 500 guys going early while losing some 60 a/c AND our DB. AND, all of this happened prior to ANY deal even being conceived/announced/sealed. Bottom line, you don't get credit for OUR early retirements and should not get credit for retirements that MIGHT happen. You know it too, so stop belaboring the point.



Puff, you are a LIAR!. Our merger committee is the same as day 1. Again, PUFFDRIVR is a LIAR. The multiple witness's were the advisory committee put together to make sure all seniority levels had a say. It's a little more democratic than having Moak in a room by himself making deals he has yet to tell the DAL pilots about.


Nup, I don't lie. We don't need people watching our people. Perhaps it was not the merger committee, perhaps it was the negotiating committee. It doesn't really matter. A member was replaced. Why was that again? While we're on the "lying" thing, wasn't there something about notification and vacations which was vehemently denied, which has now been begrudgingly been accepted. Now the excuse is that it came too late. What of this 1.5 billion payment coming--you guys like to point our ours--which might put a bit of a cash crunch on your operation? Questions, questions.


Again, Puff is a liar. Give me the proposal number, date and with merger committee members were there for the accepted proposal.

Blather, blather, blather. I know you guys are running around on damage control with spin against the "man"-Delta- trying to keep you down. The reality is what I typed. I don't lie. It serves no purpose to lie. Go ask them if they made a proposal that Delta accepted--remember those rumors that were out that there was an agreement--and that they later pulled. Perhaps the name caller needs to be called the name. The liar, liar, pants on fire argument is not going to get you out of this one. The Delta MEC is in the right, yet they are moving on-taking the high ground. The NWA MEC is out on the excuse war path. Pointing fingers with carefully worded language spun to put the Delta MEC in a bad light. Meanwhile the merger moves forward, and will continue to do so. I surmise that Steenland will eventually get tired of these reindeer games messing with his "out" money and start taking action in the fall--you know--after the busy summer season. The dreaded "F" bomb will get thrown around, and backwards movement will begin at NWA. DC-9s will be parked along with merging/dissolution of Compass, perhaps some 727 classics-or even all of them. That sets the stage for the merger consummation and the setting of a PID. Not looking good on those "career expectations", especially when you throw in the newly arriving 6 777 LRs, and the soon-to-be, meaning before the PID, announced 777 order.


Yup, agreeing to reduced contract improvements was really smart. Thank Moak for that.


It actually was. The company needed our help for their merger. We weren't getting cooperation from the "our way or the highway" crowd. So we traded favors for a little insurance on our side, and some contract improvements to springboard off of for both sides. A brilliant move. The sooner you realize that it was Steenland who screwed you over, and not the Delta pilots, the better off you will be.



You better give Moak a call about this.

I'll make you a deal, you can have credit for your possible retirements, we get credit for the 25 777 aircraft deal which has not been announced yet. They both are the same thing, promises of future repayments. IOW, blather.

 

[PuffDriver]

Once again (how many times has it been now?) YOU are NOT taking into account that it is the DALPA SCOPE CLAUSE, or lack thereof, that ALLOWS those airplanes to go away! What don't you get about that? NWALPA scope prevents those aircraft from being parked without parking RJ's enmass. How many RJ's wil DAL have to park if the new DAL parks the airplanes you are talking about? ZERO. Our guys need to pay the price for your PATHETIC scope?! YGBSM.

Or, as you like to say: fogetaboutit!!!( I doubt you are either Italian OR from Jersey)

Some of us don't think that Compass is a player going forward anyway. Not to mention that we had to give a wavier in the scope specifically for the weight of those Compass airplanes. As for our scope being pathetic, I agree. Happened before my time, and it is a bone of contention right down the middle of our list. What's your point. I think that they will gladly let Compass go, if it means putting pressure on the NWA pilots to be a little more reasonable. I certainly do not wish for that, and I fully expect you to quote it out of context in your next diatribe. Nonetheless, it is there, and it is a YP not an MP.

 

[nwaredtail]

As for our scope being pathetic, I agree. Happened before my time, and it is a bone of contention right down the middle of our list.

Just like I thought, lower seniority FO pissed he will be moving quite a bit backward. Mergers suck, sorry.

 

[PuffDriver]

Just like I thought, lower seniority FO pissed he will be moving quite a bit backward. Mergers suck, sorry.

Actually, I am a 737-800 captain, hired in the late 90's. I am about 20 numbers away from 767ER captain. I know that Moscow, Nice, Frankfurt, etc are not PREMIUM widebody flying, but I think that an arbitrator might beg to differ. Sorry to disappoint you, perhaps your can find some relevant arguments next. Yep, mergers do indeed suck. Right back at ya slick, next!!

 

[nwaredtail]

Actually, I am a 737-800 captain, hired in the late 90's. I am about 20 numbers away from 767ER captain. I know that Moscow, Nice, Frankfurt, etc are not PREMIUM widebody flying, but I think that an arbitrator might beg to differ. Sorry to disappoint you, perhaps your can find some relevant arguments next. Yep, mergers do indeed suck. Right back at ya slick, next!!

well, if that is true, I would be senior to you, even by DALPA's last proposal. I feel better already! http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon28.gif

 

[800Dog]

Actually, I am a 737-800 captain, hired in the late 90's. I am about 20 numbers away from 767ER captain. I know that Moscow, Nice, Frankfurt, etc are not PREMIUM widebody flying, but I think that an arbitrator might beg to differ. Sorry to disappoint you, perhaps your can find some relevant arguments next. Yep, mergers do indeed suck. Right back at ya slick, next!!

If you were hired in the late 90s, the pathetic scope happened during your time! Line in the sand at 70, remember?

 

[nwaredtail]

Told ya he was a liar!

 

[PuffDriver]

If you were hired in the late 90s, the pathetic scope happened during your time! Line in the sand at 70, remember?

Nope, the damage was done in the contract prior to my arrival. Since then I have been a staunch advocate of turning it around, but I am only 1 vote. How many seats does Compass allow? What is the weight of that aircraft? Why did we have to amend our scope to ALLOW for that aircraft? Questions, questions. Red herrings, red herrings.

I am glad that you take so much fervor in being senior to somebody and putting them down about it. Those kinds of attitudes tend to come around and bite you in the posterior.

While you poke our scope, we poke your rates, and scoff at your idea of "premium" widebody flying. You are a joke, and are grasping at straws and resorting to attacks on a personal level, as you have no leg to stand on any other way. The arbitrator will see through that as well. As I said, next!!

 

[PuffDriver]

Told ya he was a liar!

No, you're a liar. See how easy that is?:crying:

 

[Noserider76]

well, if that is true, I would be senior to you, even by DALPA's last proposal. I feel better already!

That last proposal was much better than you'll see this time around. The object then was to start close to get a deal done quickly so both sides would benefit. Both sides now have to change tactics to prepare for the probability of arbitration. I think you'll see something along the lines of relative seniority by equipment this time around. Widebody/757/narrowbody like the result of the last arbitrated airline merger settlement. Your senior guys will be very happy.

I'm still hoping for a big contract improvement and a negotiated SLI we can all be equally unhappy with. I just don't see a negotiated SLI as much of a possibility anymore. It would have been different if both sides had come out saying "no arbitration, we're going to stay here until we hammer this out." Unfortuately when arbitration is presented as the solution by one side on day 1, the path is clear.

 

[DTW320]

That last proposal was much better than you'll see this time around. The object then was to start close to get a deal done quickly so both sides would benefit. Both sides now have to change tactics to prepare for the probability of arbitration. I think you'll see something along the lines of relative seniority by equipment this time around. Widebody/757/narrowbody like the result of the last arbitrated airline merger settlement. Your senior guys will be very happy.

I'm still hoping for a big contract improvement and a negotiated SLI we can all be equally unhappy with. I just don't see a negotiated SLI as much of a possibility anymore.

Sooo.....the next proposal from DALPA will have, what, 1500 slots reserved above current NWA pilots for DAL pilots not hired yet? Cool. See ya in arbitration with that

 

[AA717driver]

Hey, Puff, we're NOT going away and maybe there's a REASON we sound like the PanAm guys. Forgive me if I don't get down on my knees and worship the great double-breasted gods from the South...

I'm not going away because history tends to repeat itself. Beware of ANY pilot group telling you "you're going to get a great deal if you just take our offer".

NWA will get arbitration as specified by Bond/McCaskill and ALPA merger policy. Pretty scary, huh? TC

 

[DTW320]

DC-9s will be parked along with merging/dissolution of Compass, perhaps some 727 classics-or even all of them. That sets the stage for the merger consummation and the setting of a PID. Not looking good on those "career expectations", especially when you throw in the newly arriving 6 777 LRs, and the soon-to-be, meaning before the PID, announced 777 order.

Hilarious. Ummmm....we retired the 727's a long time ago. I miss them but they used a lot of gas. I agree....you are not a liar.....you're just grossly ignorant. That fact mixed with your stereotypical Deltoid arrogance is an unfortunate combo.