Could this help a SLI? NW/DL

[LandGreen]

i know this will prompt many debates...

during a few brainstorming sessions, i have heard the idea of bringing a UPS style pay structure (CA pay fleetwide; FO pay fleetwide) to a merged carrier in an effort to "mitigate" some of the sharp edges of a SLI that all of us debate each day. just imagine the calculus of integrating a single list without the variables of specific seat pay for each separate category.

as our career expectations are changing each day with mergers, oil prices, no FAE retirement plans, furloughs, liquidations, inflation, etc, maybe the day will come when some pilots will not have to "bid" for the buck, but bid for "lifestyle." many pilots already do this, but imagine an airline 3-4 years down the road after this type of pay structure has been implemented. there would be far less training events once everyone settled into the "type" of flying they wanted. yes, the companies would love it since they would not have to staff the airline with as many pilots...BUT, I am sure there are PWA negotiators who could come up with a $$ amount that the company would save...and include a healthy percentage into our PWA. SWA realizes this huge savings "virtually" by having only a 1 fleet pay structure. not many of them complaining these days!

the 747/777 pilots will definitely not like this type of arrangement since they will not seem to benefit once pay rates come up to their levels fleetwide; but since they are senior, they will have the most flexibility to bid off the aircraft and maximize their "lifestyle" bid. most senior CA's at British Airways fly narrowbody turns instead of the heavies across the pond.

anyway, many pros and cons to think about...but it may be an alternative that would help soften the blow of a forced, or arbitrated SLI between two companies. especially in our current airline industry environment where mergers are almost certain to happen with our without pilot blessings.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Remember that in this industry seniority isn't just one thing in the mix, it is EVERYTHING!

Mgmt can come in and change pay/work rules/etc. in one fell swoop ala BK or other shyster-like means. Yes, pay may be low at NWA as of today, but can be negotiated later.

At the end of the day the only certain thing in this industry is where your name is on the seniority list.

I belive that someone on our MEC was quoted as saying that "Seniority is not for sale here" I truely hope they are serious about that one. I'm all about looking long term and not selling out my future earning potential (directly correlated to seniority) for a few thousand extra bucks on next years W-2.

I may be in the minority but thats how I feel...

 

[Superpilot92]

short term financial gain isnt worth a career loss in seniority. I firmly believe that there will be a meet in the middle stance once its all said and done but thats just my 2cents.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think bases are more of a concern than pay, at least they are for my family. A slot on a NWA, or DAL, jet is not worth moving, or commuting, for.

What makes this difficult is management's apparent plan to shift a lot of flying and equipment.

Positive space commuting in the next contract would help, but management does not want to have to deal with the duty time issues that result.

 

[Superpilot92]

I think bases are more of a concern than pay, at least they are for my family. A slot on a NWA, or DAL, jet is not worth moving, or commuting, for.

What makes this difficult is management's apparent plan to shift a lot of flying and equipment.

Positive space commuting in the next contract would help, but management does not want to have to deal with the duty time issues that result.

The biggest item is NOT selling out SCOPE!! If you guys let that go again you are doing nothing but farming out our dc9s and your md80s. WAKE UP DALALPA. NO MORE SCOPE RELIEF!!!!!!! You would think they would have learned the first time around after the first couple hundred regional jets showed up.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Someone showed me how this could be done and not give away the farm on scope. The scary part is, I think they are right.

DAL reduces DC9 flying triggering the min fleet provisions in NWA scope forcing RJ's to be parked. But instead of parking them, they just get transferred to Comair, helping Delta sell Comair for half a billion bucks.

Not that NWA did not already have that idea. Most thought Compass would be spun off.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Gotta Love Dan don't ya Fin?

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, it wasn't him. It was on the other side.

It rang true to me because it fits with the other known facts and NWA's scope would not be violated.

I think DALPA knows the NWA PWA better than they do.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Ahh.
I see. I still think that the resistance to this would come from management with the movement of aircraft. it would have to define flying as routes and not airframes, and that my friend is an ugly world for you and I to live in. It takes a lot of the efficiencies away.

 

[800Dog]

The biggest item is NOT selling out SCOPE!! If you guys let that go again you are doing nothing but farming out our dc9s and your md80s. WAKE UP DALALPA. NO MORE SCOPE RELIEF!!!!!!! You would think they would have learned the first time around after the first couple hundred regional jets showed up.

I have been saying this for years! Unfortunately, 61% of those on our list do not listen or seem to care about scope.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Management gets to sell NWA flying and a subsidiary and still comply with scope. They found a loophole.

Why would management be against a sale of Comair and a half billion in cash from NWA's DC-9 flying that they were going to park anyway?

The only way to close loopholes is one list.

My biggest fear with the concept of running NWA and DAL under holding companies is that DAL scope will have a loophole big enough to drive an entire international airline through.

Standing by for SkyWest "C" series orders.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Drama Fin. I do not see that happening. No way no how.
If it does we deserve it for being idiots and giving up what scope we have currently written.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We are idiots for not getting a merger of the airlines Delta acquired in 1999. This is just more of the same.

I remember when DCI going over 4% was a big deal, then 10%, the 20 and 25%. Now DCI is more than 50% of Delta system block hours and Delta pilots say, but we have them beat in Revenue Seat Miles. :erm:

Seems like this deal is a way to acquire an airline and say, "it is their fault, they demanded date of hire." Sound familiar?

The seeds of this vine were planted a long time ago.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Sad but true.
Fact is most do not care as long as they can trot on their merry way. Fly their trip and go home. That is why management has us beat at almost every step.
Hopefully we will change, I am doubtful though.
I think that there is enough new blood this time that is enraged to put a better fight than in the past. How committed are we, time will tell.

 

[Superpilot92]

Sad but true.
Fact is most do not care as long as they can trot on their merry way. Fly their trip and go home. That is why management has us beat at almost every step.
Hopefully we will change, I am doubtful though.
I think that there is enough new blood this time that is enraged to put a better fight than in the past. How committed are we, time will tell.

i am committed

 

[waveflyer]

A national list w/ one pay rate for seat- would solve so many of our problems.

I firmly believe the environment is right for a national list. It's the only way to protect all of us in these mergers. If i'm young and have good seniority at a company- there is no way i'm giving that up just b/c we merge w/ someone. And legally- i wouldn't have to. The precedence has been set for integrated mergers long ago. And as long as seniority ONLY counts at one company- that's the way it should be.

It should be DOH and bring in everyone. The first time you joined a 121 carrier, no matter who they were- that should be your seniority- then transfer companies and do whatever type of flying you want. Get us unified again! Until then we're eating ourselves.

We've been doing it wrong for 30 years- how much longer?

 

[IronCityBlue]

A national list w/ one pay rate for seat- would solve so many of our problems.

I firmly believe the environment is right for a national list. It's the only way to protect all of us in these mergers. If i'm young and have good seniority at a company- there is no way i'm giving that up just b/c we merge w/ someone. And legally- i wouldn't have to. The precedence has been set for integrated mergers long ago. And as long as seniority ONLY counts at one company- that's the way it should be.

It should be DOH and bring in everyone. The first time you joined a 121 carrier, no matter who they were- that should be your seniority- then transfer companies and do whatever type of flying you want. Get us unified again! Until then we're eating ourselves.

We've been doing it wrong for 30 years- how much longer?

There is no way that's going to happen, nor should it. There is risk involved in going to another company, and no rational, fair way to instantly eliminate that risk without giving the mother of all windfalls to some at the expense of others. A senior prop pilot gets hired by a legacy and instantly bids 747 Captain? Riiiiight. Never going to happen, nor should it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree that it should be a national list. Fences of course for regional guys for 10 years to the wide body left seat positions, but after that it is a wash.
You could choose QOL over pay, and the choice would be yours.
We see it as not being fair because we left and it hurt us, but if I got my longevity for my regional time then the military guy gets his for serving our great country.
That is fair. Fact is there are too many special interest involved in this industry, and not just the pilots. We cannot agree about one carrier much less all of them.

 

[NuGuy]

Most thought Compass would be spun off.

The wrinkle in that plan was another portion of the NWA scope.

It was actually a two tiered scope, with half the large RJs (the "Lower Cap") being available to any Airlink operator, and the other half (the "Upper Cap"), being available to a wholly owned Airlink (Compass, in this case).

You're right...it was expected that Compass would eventually be sold. However, in order to do so, and remain within the provisions of Section 1, 10 DC-9 replacement aircraft MUST be in operational service at the mainline.

In other words, no DC-9 replacement, no selling of Compass. There are additional roll-back provisions to protect scope after the spin off.

A 36 aircraft airline is a money loser. With all the duplication of effort (MX, admin, ect), you can't amortize the fixed cost out over a large fleet like bigger outfits.

It was thought at the time if you shackled NWA financially, you'd forced them to get a DC-9 replacement, and keep the flying in-house.

They were right...sort of. Compass has become somewhat of an albatross for NWA...can't expand it, can't sell it, can't transfer the flying to anyone else.

With the drawdown of some NB flying, the RJ cap comes into play, and both XJ and Compass were looking at cancelled orders, which made the cost side of things even worse for Compass.

Had the DAL thing not come down the pike, management would have been forced to curtail the 76 seat flying, get a DC-9 replacement or bring the 76 seat flying to the mainline. There was starting to be some serious talk about the latter happening, which, when coupled to the XJ flow through, would have been good for EVERYONE.

But, as Occam says, OBE.

If you guys sell out scope just to make a point, then, that's just stupid. Once sold, you never get it back, because management KNOWS the true value of it. And I'm sure you know, Fins, that price is too high for many mainline guys to willingly pay.

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

A 36 aircraft airline is a money loser. With all the duplication of effort (MX, admin, ect), you can't amortize the fixed cost out over a large fleet like bigger outfits.

Thank you for your reasoned post.

But, a 36 airplane fleet is not such a hinderance if you operate the type already at another subsidiary. We saw that with the transfer of 19 900's CRJ's from ASA to SkyWest who set them up in a completely separate ATL operation and Republic Airlines holdings has several certificates that span a single seniority list. Management can drive around that roadblock. The paperwork only slowed SkyWest down a little.

That is why we have to get this stuff on a single list.

 

[General Lee]

The wrinkle in that plan was another portion of the NWA scope.

It was actually a two tiered scope, with half the large RJs (the "Lower Cap") being available to any Airlink operator, and the other half (the "Upper Cap"), being available to a wholly owned Airlink (Compass, in this case).

You're right...it was expected that Compass would eventually be sold. However, in order to do so, and remain within the provisions of Section 1, 10 DC-9 replacement aircraft MUST be in operational service at the mainline.

In other words, no DC-9 replacement, no selling of Compass. There are additional roll-back provisions to protect scope after the spin off.

A 36 aircraft airline is a money loser. With all the duplication of effort (MX, admin, ect), you can't amortize the fixed cost out over a large fleet like bigger outfits.

It was thought at the time if you shackled NWA financially, you'd forced them to get a DC-9 replacement, and keep the flying in-house.

They were right...sort of. Compass has become somewhat of an albatross for NWA...can't expand it, can't sell it, can't transfer the flying to anyone else.

With the drawdown of some NB flying, the RJ cap comes into play, and both XJ and Compass were looking at cancelled orders, which made the cost side of things even worse for Compass.

Had the DAL thing not come down the pike, management would have been forced to curtail the 76 seat flying, get a DC-9 replacement or bring the 76 seat flying to the mainline. There was starting to be some serious talk about the latter happening, which, when coupled to the XJ flow through, would have been good for EVERYONE.

But, as Occam says, OBE.

If you guys sell out scope just to make a point, then, that's just stupid. Once sold, you never get it back, because management KNOWS the true value of it. And I'm sure you know, Fins, that price is too high for many mainline guys to willingly pay.

Nu

I would be highly shocked if Dalpa sold the 100 seaters down the river. Really. We fought hard to get those pay rates in BK. I think MOAK would have some major explaining to do. Let's just wait to see what happens I guess. But, in the meantime, you might want to get your negotiators over to ATL to solve some of YOUR problems. Did you see the price of oil today? I think this merger may happen, with or without your participation.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

There is no way that's going to happen, nor should it. There is risk involved in going to another company, and no rational, fair way to instantly eliminate that risk without giving the mother of all windfalls to some at the expense of others. A senior prop pilot gets hired by a legacy and instantly bids 747 Captain? Riiiiight. Never going to happen, nor should it.

at what point did you start believing that you were better than a turboprop captain?

Im a legacy FO now- but i was at my best commanding a turboprop in and out of the northeast.

If you want it to be competitive- then let competition work for us. Get seniority out of the equation altogether-- and let our unions work on raising standards and gaining leverage- let us each work our own contracts and we'd be better off than we are today-- Seriously- if our "union" industry is going to be divided where we all just look out for ourselves- then let me look out for myself- no union can look out for me, better than me. What i don't like is the split personality going on here. You want all the negatives of competition w/ none of the positives, while at the same time having all the negatives of unionization w/ none of it's positives either.

If you sit, sit. Stand, stand. Stop F***ing waffling between the two. Are we a united industry or are we not?

 

[Noserider76]

If you guys sell out scope just to make a point, then, that's just stupid. Once sold, you never get it back, because management KNOWS the true value of it. And I'm sure you know, Fins, that price is too high for many mainline guys to willingly pay.

Nu

I doubt this has anything to do with selling out any more flying. Is it possible that DALPA has stronger merger/fragmentation/scope language against allowing the company to operate as two separate carriers during an integration period? The company may need to buy DALPA off in order to complete the merger and operate the companies separately until an operational integration can happen. Just a guess, but I can almost guarantee we're not talking about relaxing scope on aircraft size/numbers.

Plan A was integrating the seniority list pre-merger with bennies for all. Plan B may be running this as two companies until it can be integrated. Plan C scares me even more.

 

[MDPilot]

I doubt this has anything to do with selling out any more flying. Is it possible that DALPA has stronger merger/fragmentation/scope language against allowing the company to operate as two separate carriers during an integration period? The company may need to buy DALPA off in order to complete the merger and operate the companies separately until an operational integration can happen. Just a guess, but I can almost guarantee we're not talking about relaxing scope on aircraft size/numbers.

Plan A was integrating the seniority list pre-merger with bennies for all. Plan B may be running this as two companies until it can be integrated. Plan C scares me even more.

Bingo!! Give the man a Kewpie doll!!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I believe what you say is very close to the truth Noserider.
Scope will always be in play, but if you recall DAL was willing to stop the 76 seat limit where it is today. That should tell you something about their business plan.

 

[waveflyer]

I would be highly shocked if Dalpa sold the 100 seaters down the river. Really. We fought hard to get those pay rates in BK. I think MOAK would have some major explaining to do. Let's just wait to see what happens I guess. But, in the meantime, you might want to get your negotiators over to ATL to solve some of YOUR problems. Did you see the price of oil today? I think this merger may happen, with or without your participation.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well i WAS shocked that after years and years of screwing up the scope game- just as info was coming out that 50 seaters were a dinosaur- that DALPA sold out on 76 seat jets. Completely sold out junior pilots. Noone at the regional level wants to fly those FOR their sh!tty regional and the junior at DAL are now exposed to furlough when the CRJ900 should have been a new a/c on the property w/ subsequent hiring and a gain in seniority to all the mainline pilots.

Why should i believe you when you say DALPA wouldn't scope out any more? Seniority is bu!!sh!t in this environment.

 

[IronCityBlue]

at what point did you start believing that you were better than a turboprop captain?

Im a legacy FO now- but i was at my best commanding a turboprop in and out of the northeast.

If you want it to be competitive- then let competition work for us. Get seniority out of the equation altogether-- and let our unions work on raising standards and gaining leverage- let us each work our own contracts and we'd be better off than we are today-- Seriously- if our "union" industry is going to be divided where we all just look out for ourselves- then let me look out for myself- no union can look out for me, better than me. What i don't like is the split personality going on here. You want all the negatives of competition w/ none of the positives, while at the same time having all the negatives of unionization w/ none of it's positives either.

If you sit, sit. Stand, stand. Stop F***ing waffling between the two. Are we a united industry or are we not?

Then we both agree that a single nationwide list is a bad idea. You want a 100,000+ pilot free for all, which I do not, but we at least agree that one seniority list is not the best idea. And its not about being "better" than a turbo prop Captain. Its a matter of staying at a turbo prop operator for 25 years and suddenly jumping to the top of a legacy list because you have the "seniority" to do so.

By your explanation, you clearly would be against that. The prop Captain may be shizzle hot at 10 minute turns and X-wind landings and 10 legs a day, all things that are challenging, but that's not what 777 pilots do. Going to work for an airline and being the bottom pilot for most of your career because uber senior guys constantly get hired in on top of you is not an idea I think you will get a whole lot of support for.

And even if you did, good luck forcing management to agree to it.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Well i WAS shocked that after years and years of screwing up the scope game- just as info was coming out that 50 seaters were a dinosaur- that DALPA sold out on 76 seat jets. Completely sold out junior pilots. Noone at the regional level wants to fly those FOR their sh!tty regional and the junior at DAL are now exposed to furlough when the CRJ900 should have been a new a/c on the property w/ subsequent hiring and a gain in seniority to all the mainline pilots.

Why should i believe you when you say DALPA wouldn't scope out any more? Seniority is bu!!sh!t in this environment.

You're right about pilot short-sightedness. I wouldn't say seniority is BS though. Seniority means everything. Its being junior that sucks. Scope relief, in any ammount, endangers the junior severely.

 

[clippyrip]

You're right about pilot short-sightedness. I wouldn't say seniority is BS though. Seniority means everything. Its being junior that sucks. Scope relief, in any ammount, endangers the junior severely.

The Delta pilots are smart enough not to agree to a union busting contract with a relaxed scope.

 

[waveflyer]

The Delta pilots are smart enough not to agree to a union busting contract with a relaxed scope.

They already did.
It's just the people who hold a vote in DALPA/UALPA/every ALPA- don't care b/c it's not them who are affected. But ask those who were furloughed to sit right seat for 26 year old rj captains- only to be recalled and under the furloughed microscope again b/c the economy is tanking and fuel's $100/barrel. ??

How many legacy pilots are on this board, got their opportunity originally flying Fokker's or DC-9s? The only difference between you and me is that you're union hadn't completely sold you out when you were young. How do you reconcile that you have a right to your seniority and longevity while a young pilot does not?