Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[~~~^~~~]

Puff:

Hope you are right about scope. You have better intel than I do. I'm just looking at market forces, history and using Occam's razor.

What now if the NWA MEC does the smart thing and says, OK, relative seniority, no fences? That would screw the DAL pilots who enjoy the ability to bid a while lot better category and QOL with about 30% less relative seniority.

Maybe I've got sour milk in my Wheaties. This morning none of this is tasting too good. But scope is like sugar, the more the better

Like you, I am just amazed the NWA pilots are not rounding up their cowboys who were afraid of a deal so fortuitous it could aptly be characterized as a "gift." I am also impressed by the DAL pilots and managements ability to come up with a massive stick. The Flightinfo drama is good today.

 

[PuffDriver]

ACL65:

Their concern remains the same. That when the floodgates open again, the flying will be routed to non-union carriers as it has been in the past.

They are pretty sure Comair is sold with a new flying award to make it sexy. This is where around 1/2 Billion of the cash for the deal is coming.

The RJDC leaders are true blue old school unionists. Wish we had more folks in ALPA that were.

Delta likes the 700's and 900's (and 1000's if they can get them). This will be sold to us as a problem for the NWA DC9 guys, but it is a real problem for all of us and not worth whatever pay, or equity, pilots might get by selling scope (DAL's, or someone else's).

As I told you when you are on the other side, there is NO WAY Delta can perform all of the flying under 1 banner. It is simply too much risk. You are listening to the wrong people. The RJDC leaders are nothing but NWA leaders in wolf's clothing. They are interested in themselves, and got their a$$ handed to them in court. There indeed MUST be connection flying. While keeping this in mind, the 50 seat is crap, always has been, always will be. Ours in particular seem to be even crappier than others. I ride in the back of them all of the time. they may as well put milk crates back there to sit on. So I am not opposed to having a more comfortable airplane for our pax to ride in--all of them as well as their bags and maybe even a non-rev or two.

That being said, I agree that scope needs to stay where it is and tightened if possible. Lest we forget, there is an even broader picture of globalization in the face of global economic woe. You can try and draw into an inside straight every time if you want to. Me, I will take the calculated risk when it looks to be there, and I will take the sure thing when it is the only way to gain.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am not opposed to having a more comfortable airplane for our pax to ride in--all of them as well as their bags and maybe even a non-rev or two.

That being said, I agree that scope needs to stay where it is and tightened if possible.

I will take the sure thing when it is the only way to gain.

Why can't Delta fly them?

Either way, Delta buys the jet. At cost, or cost plus 12 to 25%.

All Delta flying done by Delta pilots sounds like a sure thing....

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff:

Hope you are right about scope. You have better intel than I do. I'm just looking at market forces, history and using Occam's razor.

What now if the NWA MEC does the smart thing and says, OK, relative seniority, no fences? That would screw the DAL pilots who enjoy the ability to bid a while lot better category and QOL with about 30% less relative seniority.

Maybe I've got sour milk in my Wheaties. This morning none of this is tasting too good. But scope is like sugar, the more the better

Like you, I am just amazed the NWA pilots are not rounding up their cowboys who were afraid of a deal so fortuitous it could aptly be characterized as a "gift." I am also impressed by the DAL pilots and managements ability to come up with a massive stick. The Flightinfo drama is good today.

I agree that it is scary. You nailed it, though with both parts of the "LIke you" paragraph. I consider myself "old school" as well. It has been hard to trust this management team when we have been burned so many times. It has been hard to trust this MEC when I hear of the things that they have done. At the same time, you look at the airlines that are dropping--albeit low hanging fruit which is not a slam on the pilots. This is going to become an issue of surviving IMO, and the NWA pilot leadership have been given the golden egg to their and our survival. They chose to crack it open, fry it and eat it. In that respect, they spit in my MEC's face. Now my MEC is forced to have a back-up plan. The merger is happening. It's coming. Sooner or later, the big guys--the really big guys--are going to tell our CEOs that it is happening despite us. Our CEO and our MEC are protecting our interests. I would be nervous, except that all information that is coming to light shows our MEC 5 steps ahead of us, 10 ahead of flightinfo, and 40 ahead of the NWA MEC.

Did you know that ED Bastian and our vice-chair TC went to NY on sunday?

As for the QOL issues you address, I have YET to see what this proposed list looks like. For real. Hard to get that information for some reason.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree with some of what you say Puff.
I do also understand a little more of the DAL MEC and the dynamic than you give me credit for. I know that we (our MEC) has gone to the ends of the earth for the NWA guys. All the way up to and short of selling ourselves out. They will not do that.
What I do not like to see if us screwing them in to submission. That is an underhanded tatic that I would not like to see. I would like them to see the light of day, but at what cost becomes the question.
Do you think that to use your words letting them throw themselves under the bus is the wisest thing to do? DO you think that in 2012 that their scorched earth policy will be any less than it is today. If they are so stubborn and entitled as you say, do you really think that a few years will make them any happier. If anything it will make the rest of the non-bitter ones bitter towards us.
As I stated it is a dangerous game. One that we will win but at what cost?

 

[PuffDriver]

Why can't Delta fly them?

Either way, Delta buys the jet. At cost, or cost plus 12 to 25%.

All Delta flying done by Delta pilots sounds like a sure thing....

I love that soundbite, I really do. Nonetheless, it is not practical. That is way too much capital investment for a single U.S. company to shoulder. With the code shares in the mix, we simply offer the single best transportation system in the world. It bothers me more that we do not address the lack of flying all of the 777s that carry the Delta code.

I would love it if we flew all of our jets, for I would be a 777 captain now. There are larger issues here right now though. I would be satisfied with status quo for now until our leverage is much greater. Can we at least agree that the Delta MEC has managed to create some leverage where there should be NONE? In this environment, I am more convinced than ever that it is about staying power. The combined carrier will have access to credit where there is now none. The combined carrier would have sound financials. The combined carrier will have the element of POSSESSION is we go worst case and airlines start falling down like dominoes--as we have seen as of late.

Why can't Delta pilots fly all Delta airplanes? Maybe they can, but there is a more important battle at hand, and I am glad that we have people around like you and me to insure that the other issues are not forgotten. The RJDC can go suck it--as they already have.

I hear what you are saying, and I know who you are, and I look forward to drinking in NCE someday while we scream at each other about these issues over a big old basket of socca, and then take yet another sip of our wine. It's not gay, really.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Quite logical.
And in fact I agree with it.
From your prospective what other issues are more important than longer term viability and job security, besides the credit and buying power the combined entity will have?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Sounds like a SCAB

I tried to tell you that the powers that be have been busy. In short, the NWA pilots are running out of time.

Your leasers are destructive to your long term survival. I have tried to tell you this. You were presented a package that gave you the vast bulk of the raises, the bennies, etc. Pretty much all of your leadership saw it as a good deal. Yet they were too chicken to actually show leadership and take a good deal out of fear of retribution. Indeed, your MEC chair was more afraid of stickers with his name crossed out than he was protecting his pilots.

The Delta pilots were willing to live with a fair list, and much less gain in order to get a large, more stable company. Now, they will get it one way or another. You can play along and be welcomed, or be kicked to the curb.

Indeed, a dynamic list was floated. Indeed, it was accepted by the Delta pilots--as it unwittingly benefitted them more than the proposer. Then, it was yanked off of the table by the proposer. The examples of NWA MEC lack of organization are many, and their lack of real leadership the same. The game is going forward at full steam now, and the NWA pilots are going to have to run full bore to have a chance to jump on it before it leaves the station. They had their chance, and used it to try and draw an inside straight rather than split the pot. Now, both group will get less than they would have and the NWA group will lose everything.

Remember that a joint contract will have to be negotiated, and both MECs ratify it, and both pilot groups ratify it prior to the joining of the list. Prediction--in the meantime NWA will be parking widebodies as announcements will be made for orders of new widebodies for the "south". The "north" will have some choices to make whilst their fleet is going away. Oh yes, the min narrowbody provision. The other benefactor in this will be the pilots of Comair, and to a lessor degree Skywest and ASA. Wanna take a guess as to why?

You're going to vote no CL65? I will make you a $100 bet that you will vote yes, once you are presented with all of the facts in this debacle. Frankly, it is unbelievable--the arrogance. The arrogance of the NWA pilots is going to kill them.

You have been warned. I will vote yes, but would much rather have cooler heads in the north prevail.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

How would you come to that conclusion. I disagree with that.

 

[PuffDriver]

What I do not like to see if us screwing them in to submission. That is an underhanded tatic that I would not like to see. I would like them to see the light of day, but at what cost becomes the question.
Do you think that to use your words letting them throw themselves under the bus is the wisest thing to do? DO you think that in 2012 that their scorched earth policy will be any less than it is today. If they are so stubborn and entitled as you say, do you really think that a few years will make them any happier. If anything it will make the rest of the non-bitter ones bitter towards us.
As I stated it is a dangerous game. One that we will win but at what cost?

Screwing is not the word I would use. The phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" comes to mind. I firmly believe that we can go it alone, but I've no doubt that it might be "close" as to whether or not we will make it. I have no doubt that NWA will park the 9s and remain status quo for a long time at best. Meanwhile, we will find our Asian and west coast presence via a chopped up United.

Some more firmness: I firmly believe that the Delta MEC believes the same as you type above, as do I. This deal is coming. We would much prefer to do it with the NWA pilots on consensual terms, but we have to protect ourselves against the possibility of a defeatist, one-sided, all or nothing mentality. That is what we have gotten, and we have stepped up the pressure accordingly.

I have surmised this based on many conversations with people in the know. We want the deal via give and take with NWA. The deal is going to be done regardless of consensus. NWA MEC has wanted to do all of the taking. That's not going to happen. We are protecting ourselves accordingly. This is not a negotiation, it is a unique opportunity to come to an accord outside of negotiations.

We met for the coin toss at our 45 yard line. The NWA MEC stayed in their end zone and refused to budge-seemingly to end up at their 25 yard line for the final score. The question is will they still be there, in full uniform, standing long after the game is over, the participants and crown have left, and the lights in the stadium have been turned out?

 

[~~~^~~~]

The mother of all DFR lawsuits?

Did you know that ED Bastian and our vice-chair TC went to NY on Sunday?

No, and I'm sure that if they went, they only went to argue and fight. At least that would be my story if I was an ALPA official.

While the DAL pilots and sympathetic management might come up with a effective plan to screw, blue, and tattoo the NWA pilots, the problem is that the DAL pilots are still represented by ALPA. So are the NWA pilots.

Even if this is the result of NWA pilots' brazen stupidity and intransigence, they are ALPA members.

ALPA cannot enter into a conspiracy with management to screw other ALPA members without the mother of all DFR litigation. Sure finding the line between a conspiracy and management acting on its own is not easy, but, when an entirely new contract is negotiated that line would be so big Stevie Wonder could find it.

I've long argued that we needed more effective controls and resolutions in ALPA National. If this goes down the way some have theorized on this board - ALPA is over. The problem for D-ALPA is they might have to sever their ties sooner rather than later to avoid DFR exposure.

Puff: You say the RJDC got handed it's @$$ in Ct., and I agree. But, ALPA needs the RJDC's reforms to survive. A couple dozen ASA and Comair pilots pushed pretty hard for reforms, how hard can 5,000 NWA pilots push? The USAPA deal is already completely out of control. ALPA can not allow its MEC's to go off the reservation and act entirely on their own initiatives.

I fully support the Delta MEC, but write this precaution because I see a scenario where our union no longer exists and the proud history of organized labor in my profession comes to an abrupt end.

 

[PuffDriver]

How would you come to that conclusion. I disagree with that.

I do too. Let me reiterate. The deal is going to be done. NWA and DAL will merge. The question is whether or not the pilots will be on board with it.
The Delta MEC would like to see a consensual approach to the merging of the lists, and a fair integration. The NWA MEC would like to see their group taking everything they can possibly get. The Delta MEC, in agreement with Delta, is covering their 6.

No more, no less. The ball is in the court of the NWA leadership. I suggest that they play it smartly.

 

[~~~^~~~]

"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

You can lead a whore to culture, but you can not make her think.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

True, and what remains to be seen is if they will budge. I would guess not. I could be wrong, but I feel that given their score in arbitration, they would like to take their chances. That has been the issue all along.

Your term of leading a horse to water is correct from our perspective, but from theirs....
They will feel that we sold them out, or as I stated. They will be out for blood if this does not get worked out NOW. We both know that.

As for scope. If it is relaxed as it was a few years ago, are we not doing the same thing we did back then? Will DAL not have the same issue that it does now in 2010 and beyond. Too many RJ's that cannot perform the lift needed for our system. That is what worries me. RJ's are not the answer. We see that now. Now, granted the new ones coming on line ( C-series comes to mind) are a different animal. I would like to see that on DAL's property, not DCI's.
To further clarify my statement. I will vote NO to anything that does not limit RJ flying where it is today, or reduces the 76 seat exposure that we are seeing today. If that occurs I may vote yes.

I agree that the 50 is a dead product. Dead for the mission that it is flying. It is not being used at it was intended. It may never be. The 70 has the same issues but to a lesser degree. Now the 170/175 has payload issues that the 88 does. Some but not often. It is a better product than the original RJ's.
If our MEC does what you are stating and hopes to fix this down the road, aren't we hoping for leverage like the NWA pilots are betting on retirements? I understand that you cannot flight every battle and win. It is the war that counts. I see the big picture here, but how far down the road are we looking. I hope at least 10-15 years.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You can lead a whore to culture, but you can not make her think.

Awesome. Now that is a good one.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Puff,

You give me some integration #s other than your "generous, fair proposal" I keep hearing about. I am a 95 hire/short bus capt. Where would I fall in your world of fair. Would I be with 95-97 hires or 2000-01? Also, if you guys go to bed with these Lorenzo clones to bust us up and we deem our transferred flying as struck work, what you gonna do??? If I am reading the media leaks and your statements correct, I think I know what you will be. Hope I am wrong and I hope your leadership can see thru what mgmt is trying to do. That is bust ALPA, period. They have busted it at Usair, and now they are using you guys to bust it here.

I do too. Let me reiterate. The deal is going to be done. NWA and DAL will merge. The question is whether or not the pilots will be on board with it.
The Delta MEC would like to see a consensual approach to the merging of the lists, and a fair integration. The NWA MEC would like to see their group taking everything they can possibly get. The Delta MEC, in agreement with Delta, is covering their 6.

No more, no less. The ball is in the court of the NWA leadership. I suggest that they play it smartly.

 

[~~~^~~~]

deleted

 

[Superpilot92]

i am baffled how many of you DAL guys act like you are in bed with MGMT. MGMT IS NOT YOUR FRIEND! Were they your friend when they slashed your pay and pensions?uke:

 

[737 Pylt]

And you were doing so good!

ACL65:

Their concern remains the same. That when the floodgates open again, the flying will be routed to non-union carriers as it has been in the past.

Their concern....How about $100,000,000 and no less than $1,000,000 per pilot. Too bad you're not one of them any more, but you're free to go back there.

They are pretty sure Comair is sold with a new flying award to make it sexy. This is where around 1/2 Billion of the cash for the deal is coming.

Did dan tell you this while you were under his desk or was it n2264j?

The RJDC leaders are true blue old school unionists. Wish we had more folks in ALPA that were.

The rjdc leaders are scumbag losers who couldn't get hired anywhere because of "questionable" backgrounds. It appears that Delta failed miserable by letting a little supporter like you slip through the crack, although, I'm anxiously awaiting your "threatened resignation."

Delta likes the 700's and 900's (and 1000's if they can get them). This will be sold to us as a problem for the NWA DC9 guys, but it is a real problem for all of us and not worth whatever pay, or equity, pilots might get by selling scope (DAL's, or someone else's).

Just think, you can go back to fying with your pal joemerchant at ASA and hang out in KY at the old rjdc hangout and butt smack each other to your hearts delight joyous about the prosper of yet another lawsuit! Why not? I'm sure with summer coming, Haber could use a new roof on that pad of his in the Hamptons.
Fins, sometimes you are a horses ass!
Why didn't you just stay at ASA?

737

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Same relative seniority that you have now. Where is that?