737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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Fins:
I completely agree. Maybe its time for BOTH sides to give a little, because the whipsaw would be unbelievable. They'd whipsaw us faster than jmoney on a 12 year old boy!
737
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Delta and Northwest revive merger talks
- Thread starter Mr.B
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Fins:
I completely agree. Maybe its time for BOTH sides to give a little, because the whipsaw would be unbelievable. They'd whipsaw us faster than jmoney on a 12 year old boy!
737
No. NWA guys just want what is fair for both groups. We could actually end up flying with you guys for the rest of our careers!!! Most of us have heard is that we were close to an agreement on round one. Some have used "we started off 10 miles apart and now are within a half mile."
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737 Pylt
Um....Floats anyone??
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I think you'll see there is room to move on BOTH parties! Lets hope a deal can get hammered out before this deal gets forced on us with nothing!
737
IXLR8
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Yeah,,ok..you were in the meetings?..maybe the NWA guys were looking out for their own, and of course the Delta guys didnt like it and started this crap that NWA pilots were unprepared.
Cobraair75drvr
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I agree that they would love to whipsaw us. Just look what they have done over the years Dal/cmr/asa, Nwa/pncl/msba and now compost. Actually, a cynical pilot(all nwa'ers are): would think that RA promising that all Dal employees seniority would be protected would automatically set both groups up for a fight. And with that, they convince us that a AF/Klm type operation will work. From a mgmt standpoint it would be brilliant. Park the 9s and maybe freightors ( or threaten to) and we agree to concessions for growth (think 787s and whatever 100seater they decide on) then we get growth and then your(Dal) turn. 80s parked 76s replaced with 78s with nwa pilots flying your previous routes then our turn again, etc. We need to come to an agreement that is fair for all. Lets hope that the guys we elected have a better idea of what both parties would accept as fair and get it hammered out so we can start drinking beer together and get this profession back where it belongs.
I have posted this before.
NWA nor DAL negotiators are at fault here. Go ahead and spread RUMORS if that works for you, but do not assign blame. We were not there. They had a tough job. Figuring how to put together 12,000 pilots is a biatch.
If this deal ends up being two companies ala AF/KLM, we are screwed. The term whipsaw will be redefined by management. We need to get together and not allow them to do this.
PILOTS ARE NOT THE ENEMY. MANAGEMENT IS!!!
NWA nor DAL negotiators are at fault here. Go ahead and spread RUMORS if that works for you, but do not assign blame. We were not there. They had a tough job. Figuring how to put together 12,000 pilots is a biatch.
If this deal ends up being two companies ala AF/KLM, we are screwed. The term whipsaw will be redefined by management. We need to get together and not allow them to do this.
PILOTS ARE NOT THE ENEMY. MANAGEMENT IS!!!
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mmmm...Beeeer!!!! I couldn't agree more.
~~~^~~~
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The fight that is on is not with pilots. It might not even be with "management." None of the Delta managers seemed to think the merger was a good idea. Could it be Management and Employees together fighting three headed dogs who guard the gates of Hell? Dogs that have no long term interest in the Companies they own?
It will be interesting to read. ALPA's going to have to announce something soon if they want pilots walking in circles on command.
Superpilot92
LONGCALL KING
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Noserider76
Teahupoo
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One hell of a way to divide a pilot group right off the bat. From the Wall Street Journal:
Pilot Talks Could Boost
Delta, Northwest Deal
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA
April 8, 2008 7:56 p.m.
Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. could be in a position to proceed with their long-delayed merger announcement as early as next week if Delta management succeeds in current talks with its own carrier's pilots, said people familiar with the situation.
With fuel prices at historically high levels and the economy weakening, Delta and Northwest are under increasing financial pressure that has made a merger look even more compelling. A combination of the nation's No. 3 and 5 airlines by traffic would create the world's biggest airline, with a larger network that could boost revenue and reduce some costs.
They also are running out of time to get a transaction vetted by the current Bush Administration Justice Department, a strategy they prefer to waiting for a new team to arrive in Washington in January.
The complicating factor all along has been their pilots, who have been at loggerheads over how to integrate their separate seniority lists in a merged airline. Now it seems that Delta at least is leaning toward treating the pilot groups differently -- at least initially -- if the combination goes ahead, these people said.
Delta and its 6,000 pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association union, have in recent days been in talks about a new contract that would go into effect if the merger is consummated, but only for Delta aviators, said knowledgeable individuals. A spokesman for the Delta pilots group declined to comment. A spokeswoman for the airline declined to comment on any discussions with its pilots or other airlines.
The Delta pilots are being asked to agree to drop certain restrictions in their current labor agreement in order to give the combined airline more flexibility during the first phase of the merger. In return for dropping language that would limit the merged carrier's flexibility, the Delta pilots would receive pay raises, equity and a board seat, sweeteners perhaps not as generous as those contemplated a few months ago but similar, said one person.
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today. That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated.
A spokesman for the Northwest union group declined to comment.
The current Northwest pilot contract doesn't have as much language that would restrict Delta and Northwest in a combination, people familiar with the matter said. But the quicker the Northwest and Delta pilots have the same contract and are on a single seniority list, the faster the combined company could begin integrating its fleet, scheduling and other operations, reaping immediate savings.
People close to the situation said Delta and its pilots are negotiating, and Delta hopes to reach a decision about how and when to proceed by the end of this week. But issues still could arise to delay or kill the deal. It's also not certain the Delta pilot leadership will agree to final terms of a new, post-merger contract in time for a deal to be announced next week, they said. The new contract terms also would need to be ratified by the Delta pilot membership in the coming months.
But the gist of the transaction would contain many of the same features as the one the two carriers were close to announcing in late February, before the pilot seniority dispute derailed that plan. Terms include a share swap a near market rates, with a slight premium for Northwest holders; an investment by European marketing partner Air France-KLM SA; and retention of the Delta name, headquarters and chief executive officer, Richard Anderson.
Seniority is important to pilots because it dictates which types of planes they fly and whether they are captains or first officers, two determinants of pay, along with when they can take time off and whether they would be laid off in a downsizing. Delta pilots claimed Northwest pilots' proposals would jeopardize their members' seniority and hurt their career prospects. Northwest's pilots offered to put the issue to a neutral arbitrator, a plan the Delta pilots rejected.
After a lull last month, Northwest revived the merger idea, making a proposal to Delta that the two go ahead -- but without a common pilot labor contract and seniority agreement covering all 11,000 aviators upfront. That is the way most airline mergers work, leaving it to the pilots after consummation to wrangle over seniority, ultimately put the matter to arbitration, and then bargain with management on a new contract. The process can take years.
By reaching agreement with Delta pilots sooner, the merged airline could shorten that process. Such a step also could win the Delta pilots' support and set the tone of Delta labor relations right from the date of the merger, said one person familiar with the matter. Mr. Anderson, Delta's CEO, has said he doesn't want to do a deal unless his workers' seniority is protected. He was a proponent of trying to work everything out with both pilot groups before the merger, an idea that now is losing currency.
Pilot Talks Could Boost
Delta, Northwest Deal
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA
April 8, 2008 7:56 p.m.
Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. could be in a position to proceed with their long-delayed merger announcement as early as next week if Delta management succeeds in current talks with its own carrier's pilots, said people familiar with the situation.
With fuel prices at historically high levels and the economy weakening, Delta and Northwest are under increasing financial pressure that has made a merger look even more compelling. A combination of the nation's No. 3 and 5 airlines by traffic would create the world's biggest airline, with a larger network that could boost revenue and reduce some costs.
They also are running out of time to get a transaction vetted by the current Bush Administration Justice Department, a strategy they prefer to waiting for a new team to arrive in Washington in January.
The complicating factor all along has been their pilots, who have been at loggerheads over how to integrate their separate seniority lists in a merged airline. Now it seems that Delta at least is leaning toward treating the pilot groups differently -- at least initially -- if the combination goes ahead, these people said.
Delta and its 6,000 pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association union, have in recent days been in talks about a new contract that would go into effect if the merger is consummated, but only for Delta aviators, said knowledgeable individuals. A spokesman for the Delta pilots group declined to comment. A spokeswoman for the airline declined to comment on any discussions with its pilots or other airlines.
The Delta pilots are being asked to agree to drop certain restrictions in their current labor agreement in order to give the combined airline more flexibility during the first phase of the merger. In return for dropping language that would limit the merged carrier's flexibility, the Delta pilots would receive pay raises, equity and a board seat, sweeteners perhaps not as generous as those contemplated a few months ago but similar, said one person.
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today. That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated.
A spokesman for the Northwest union group declined to comment.
The current Northwest pilot contract doesn't have as much language that would restrict Delta and Northwest in a combination, people familiar with the matter said. But the quicker the Northwest and Delta pilots have the same contract and are on a single seniority list, the faster the combined company could begin integrating its fleet, scheduling and other operations, reaping immediate savings.
People close to the situation said Delta and its pilots are negotiating, and Delta hopes to reach a decision about how and when to proceed by the end of this week. But issues still could arise to delay or kill the deal. It's also not certain the Delta pilot leadership will agree to final terms of a new, post-merger contract in time for a deal to be announced next week, they said. The new contract terms also would need to be ratified by the Delta pilot membership in the coming months.
But the gist of the transaction would contain many of the same features as the one the two carriers were close to announcing in late February, before the pilot seniority dispute derailed that plan. Terms include a share swap a near market rates, with a slight premium for Northwest holders; an investment by European marketing partner Air France-KLM SA; and retention of the Delta name, headquarters and chief executive officer, Richard Anderson.
Seniority is important to pilots because it dictates which types of planes they fly and whether they are captains or first officers, two determinants of pay, along with when they can take time off and whether they would be laid off in a downsizing. Delta pilots claimed Northwest pilots' proposals would jeopardize their members' seniority and hurt their career prospects. Northwest's pilots offered to put the issue to a neutral arbitrator, a plan the Delta pilots rejected.
After a lull last month, Northwest revived the merger idea, making a proposal to Delta that the two go ahead -- but without a common pilot labor contract and seniority agreement covering all 11,000 aviators upfront. That is the way most airline mergers work, leaving it to the pilots after consummation to wrangle over seniority, ultimately put the matter to arbitration, and then bargain with management on a new contract. The process can take years.
By reaching agreement with Delta pilots sooner, the merged airline could shorten that process. Such a step also could win the Delta pilots' support and set the tone of Delta labor relations right from the date of the merger, said one person familiar with the matter. Mr. Anderson, Delta's CEO, has said he doesn't want to do a deal unless his workers' seniority is protected. He was a proponent of trying to work everything out with both pilot groups before the merger, an idea that now is losing currency.
Occam's Razor
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ACL65PILOT
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PuffDriver
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I tried to tell you that the powers that be have been busy. In short, the NWA pilots are running out of time.
Your leasers are destructive to your long term survival. I have tried to tell you this. You were presented a package that gave you the vast bulk of the raises, the bennies, etc. Pretty much all of your leadership saw it as a good deal. Yet they were too chicken to actually show leadership and take a good deal out of fear of retribution. Indeed, your MEC chair was more afraid of stickers with his name crossed out than he was protecting his pilots.
The Delta pilots were willing to live with a fair list, and much less gain in order to get a large, more stable company. Now, they will get it one way or another. You can play along and be welcomed, or be kicked to the curb.
Indeed, a dynamic list was floated. Indeed, it was accepted by the Delta pilots--as it unwittingly benefitted them more than the proposer. Then, it was yanked off of the table by the proposer. The examples of NWA MEC lack of organization are many, and their lack of real leadership the same. The game is going forward at full steam now, and the NWA pilots are going to have to run full bore to have a chance to jump on it before it leaves the station. They had their chance, and used it to try and draw an inside straight rather than split the pot. Now, both group will get less than they would have and the NWA group will lose everything.
Remember that a joint contract will have to be negotiated, and both MECs ratify it, and both pilot groups ratify it prior to the joining of the list. Prediction--in the meantime NWA will be parking widebodies as announcements will be made for orders of new widebodies for the "south". The "north" will have some choices to make whilst their fleet is going away. Oh yes, the min narrowbody provision. The other benefactor in this will be the pilots of Comair, and to a lessor degree Skywest and ASA. Wanna take a guess as to why?
You're going to vote no CL65? I will make you a $100 bet that you will vote yes, once you are presented with all of the facts in this debacle. Frankly, it is unbelievable--the arrogance. The arrogance of the NWA pilots is going to kill them.
You have been warned. I will vote yes, but would much rather have cooler heads in the north prevail.
~~~^~~~
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And I will vote no also. I hate being correct about this scope issue all the time.
Management has a problem with too many small jet providers. They want relief (aka flexibility) to buy their way out with an award for more flying (not looking down the road to when the 70 and 90 seaters will be obsolete).
In the interim, someone thinks the NWA can be squeezed by making an end run around their scope using fragmentation language; and pressure them using retire and replace at regional airlines and Delta main line.
Talk about arrogance.
Unless the new airline is Delta and only Delta gets the new flying awards.... you can bet that the pilots with 40 to 50% lower costs at NWA, ASA, Comair, SkyWest and versions of Republic Holdings are going to be winners while the pilots that sold their scope will again be losers.
No wonder the RJDC is getting spun up again.
Please, please, please, I'm begging to be proved wrong, but I predict next summer we will see outsourcing of jets very close to 100 seats.
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ACL65PILOT
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I am a DAL pilot, and I have to say that do you really think that this will not blow up in out faces.
I agree that the NWA group has been idiotic to a fault, totally unprepared in negotiations and way to demanding but that does not give us carte blanc to throw our future brothers and sisters under the bus. That is something that would hurt this group in unimaginable ways.
BTW why are you warning me. I am one of you. I know the score quite well.
I agree that the NWA group has been idiotic to a fault, totally unprepared in negotiations and way to demanding but that does not give us carte blanc to throw our future brothers and sisters under the bus. That is something that would hurt this group in unimaginable ways.
BTW why are you warning me. I am one of you. I know the score quite well.
ACL65PILOT
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ACL65PILOT
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~~~^~~~
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ACL65:
Their concern remains the same. That when the floodgates open again, the flying will be routed to non-union carriers as it has been in the past.
They are pretty sure Comair is sold with a new flying award to make it sexy. This is where around 1/2 Billion of the cash for the deal is coming.
The RJDC leaders are true blue old school unionists. Wish we had more folks in ALPA that were.
Delta likes the 700's and 900's (and 1000's if they can get them). This will be sold to us as a problem for the NWA DC9 guys, but it is a real problem for all of us and not worth whatever pay, or equity, pilots might get by selling scope (DAL's, or someone else's).
Their concern remains the same. That when the floodgates open again, the flying will be routed to non-union carriers as it has been in the past.
They are pretty sure Comair is sold with a new flying award to make it sexy. This is where around 1/2 Billion of the cash for the deal is coming.
The RJDC leaders are true blue old school unionists. Wish we had more folks in ALPA that were.
Delta likes the 700's and 900's (and 1000's if they can get them). This will be sold to us as a problem for the NWA DC9 guys, but it is a real problem for all of us and not worth whatever pay, or equity, pilots might get by selling scope (DAL's, or someone else's).
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PuffDriver
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I am not warning you, I am warning them. I have seen the numbers of what has been presented to them--not the membership--the leadership. It was more than fair.
It will not be us throwing them under the bus, it will be them throwing themselves under it. You may be one of us, but your knowledge is that of ASA. You have a long way to go before you understand the history of the Delta MEC, and how different it is this time.
Fins, I couldn't agree more about scope. We are where we are. That is a given. No more relenting on scope. However, we have a wholly owned subsidiary which will soon be very overstaffed. They have a subsidiary which may be as well through forced parking due to mainline parking. I don't see additional RJ flying, merely possible reallocation.
Again, the NWA leadership is being smacked upside the head due to their lack of ANY semblance of reason. Hopefully they will do the right thing.
Also, these guys could get everything that they want, and still you will hear their tale of woe while you are flying with them. They have no plan, they have no organization, they have no trust with ANYBODY, and they have ANYTHING short of scorched earth policy. I urge you both to delve deeper. I have. Our leadership has done everything in the world to promote unity. NWA has had the golden key given to them, and rejected it because it wasn't 2 golden keys.
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