The Regional Situation

[PCL_128]

They've tried that too. It also failed. Not to mention that they couldn't even support their own in-house union without some astronomical dues structure.

 

[Sedona16]

Skywest Pylot:

The place to start cleaning up is your own house. How many times have SkyWest pilots failed to vote a union on the property? How many of ASA's jets do you operate due to aircraft transfers while ASA was trying to raise their compensation and work rules? How giddy were your fellow pilots when upgrades were 6 months at Skywest and 5 years at ASA? How do you like SLC, and ATL bases?

SkyWest should move beyond the Student Counsel and get a union.

You may have moved on, but the problem at the regional level remains the same. They do not own the brand. As long as ALPA allows the outsourcing management will get the work done by the lowest bidder. I like some of your ideas, but coming from a "SkyWest Pylot" it seems hypocritical in the extreme.

Fins, no need to slam Skywest Pylot. I have known him for some time. You will not find a more vocal person trying to get his pilot group while he was at skywest to do all that he suggested with his first post of this thread and what you say above. He was part of the solution, not the problem. Dont get the two types of pilots at skywest confused. The majority are koolaid drinking, cancer producing lackeys. Skywest pylot was one voice going against the grain and eventually gave up when noone would listen....he moved on.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Sedona,

Long time no see! How goes the good fight? :beer:

 

[check6]

Unfortunately, the SkyWest Pilots refuse time and time again to unionize. The merits of ALPA are not good enough to get the SkyWest guys to take the plunge.

Now this is something I don't understand, and it really doesn't have to do with the subject of this thread. Why is it that Skywest has attempted to unionize under ALPA? Isn't ALPA the same union which "supports" most of Skywest's mainline affiliates? Wouldn't ALPA shaft Skywest in some cases because both them and the mainline affiliates are under ALPA contracts?

Does anyone think Skywest would be better off with a different union altogether, one that will fight for their rights, not a mainline carrier's rights?

Just a thought. . . .

 

[check6]

Horizon is not flying a bunch of 50 seat gas guzzlers (by CPSM standards). Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Horizon getting rid of their RJs and going turbo prop? (Q400) IMO, other regionals should be doing the same.

This has been a rumor for a period of time now. Management has decided our 70 seat jets cost too much. Now . . .there are two sides to this: Either the jets do cost a lot or they are saying this to sway our contract negotiating process.

One example of idiocracy on the part of management is the routes they are operating the jets on. We have jets flying between Seattle/Portland, Seattle/Spokane, Seattle/Boise and some other short hops which a Q400 would serve just as well and at a
higher profit margin, not to mention the same amount of block time.

That is a perfect example of how our jets are costing a lot. . .they simply are not being used efficiently.

So, while not official, this move could be imminent. Anyone else know more? If so, chime in.

 

[rtmcfi]

Now this is something I don't understand, and it really doesn't have to do with the subject of this thread. Why is it that Skywest has attempted to unionize under ALPA? Isn't ALPA the same union which "supports" most of Skywest's mainline affiliates? Wouldn't ALPA shaft Skywest in some cases because both them and the mainline affiliates are under ALPA contracts?

Does anyone think Skywest would be better off with a different union altogether, one that will fight for their rights, not a mainline carrier's rights?

Just a thought. . . .

Actually this us vs. them mentality is what needs to stop. The only us should be pilots, the only them should be management. We would all be better served by one union, with one seniority list. However, that will not likely happen due to greed. Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[PCL_128]

Wouldn't ALPA shaft Skywest in some cases because both them and the mainline affiliates are under ALPA contracts?

Nope.

 

[Jmoney]

Illustration......

With Aloha's demise thanks to higher fuel and Mesa, it shows that some routes can't be flown profitably with certain aircraft. Their 737-700s flying from the mainland to Hawaii just weren't cutting it with high fuel, and they needed larger planes to lower the CASM. How are your 738s doing to Hawaii by the way? You ANC guys still get to fly those, right? That must be awesome. Are you guys at Alaska getting any larger planes than the 739?


Bye Bye--General Lee

This is a great illustration of what a turd we are dealing with. Everyone at every single other airline is an idiot, eh general? We will see.......

All that is certain is that you are an egotistical bucket of stinking turds. I have a feeling you will get the kick in the nuts you deserve soon. Fate has a way of making fodder of idiots like you!

-Go to hell-Gen!

 

[Lear70]

*sigh* OK, since no one else is going to explain CASM in more detail to Andy,,,

Exactly! This is an example of right-sizing. Why put multiple 50's on a route that can be covered by a 737 with adequate frequency.

You have the right idea, except that those travelers need to connect. With the multiple options travelers have from any given city, what they look for is convenience. Minimum connection waiting times, cheap flights that don't leave at 6:05 in the morning or get in at 11:59 p.m., etc.

That's what smaller jets with more frequency give the airline - a schedule advantage because they can't raise ticket prices unless everyone else does.

Not sold on that assumption but do disagree on routes short enough that the altidue necessary to match fuel burns won't be reached long enough to cruise.

True. This is why 70- seaters are more economical on many routes than a 737-700 or 800, not to mention that a 40 minute flight from ATL-JAN (Jackson, MS) is a waste of a 737's resources unless you can fill it up with $700 a piece tickets.

I disagree here. Somewhere in the spectrum of markets, there are shorter routes that have little competition that can produce enough yield per ticket but not enough tickets to fill larger aircraft where the 50 will beat the economics of a 737.

There ya go! NOW you're starting to piece it together. One word sticks out in that sentence you need to think about again: YIELD.

Now, read it again and tell me what routes still have little competition with enough demand to raise the ticket prices enough to produce that yield.

Hint: there aren't any. They're all gone. I flew RJ's for 5 years to just about every small city east of the rockies, and they ALL had at least 3 if not 4 or 5 different feeders for DAL, NWA, CAL, UAL, etc. That's the problem, the market is saturated and ticket prices can't come up to produce that yield unless EVERYONE raises prices the, if they do, the people working in Minot, ND with an average income of $36,000 a year won't be able to travel.

It's a nasty catch-22.

Right-sizing routes IS an important piece of the puzzle, don't get me wrong. But your first post put a large portion of the argument on "mainline rates" (well, it was the ONLY monetary portion of your argument). I know that you understand there's more to it than that, but let me give you a bigger piece of the puzzle.

In the 50-seat CRJ CASM (I have the numbers directly from Bombardier that include EVERY imaginable cost), pilots make up about 2% of CASM. In the 120-seat MD-80, pilots make up about 1.5% of CASM, even at mainline rates, and the MD-80 CASM is LOWER than the CRJ because there's more passengers. Those aren't made-up numbers, they're FACT.

Arguably, a CRJ shouldn't be doing ATL-DCA just to add frequency to an airline's schedule, and an MD-80 doesn't need to be doing ATL-JAN 5 times day, but the balance of which airplane on which route is MUCH more complicated than what you've laid out.

Personally, if I were to run an airline right now, I wouldn't own ANY RJ's. The 90-passenger Q-400 burns less fuel, takes more passengers, and is only 30 kts slower on a 300-mile route segment than a 50- or a 70-seat CRJ or Embraer.

p.s. The reason I've researched this is I've been on negotiating committees before and recently was putting the final touches on a project to convert CRJ-200's to CL-850 business jets but 2 companies beat me to it, putting their business plans out there in December and Jan respectively.

Still working on it from a different angle, but just about every airline will be putting their CRJ-200's to pasture over the next 3-5 years and it makes a great corporate vehicle when retrofitted with aux fuel tanks and a Global interior (fits perfectly). It's a Global with a 3,000-4,200 nm range instead of a Global's 5,000+.

Looking for a donor aircraft right now - those other 2 companies got big $$ funding and snatched up just about every FlyI aircraft and any other sitting CRJ available.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unfortunately, the SkyWest Pilots refuse time and time again to unionize. The merits of ALPA are not good enough to get the SkyWest guys to take the plunge.
The carrot failed. It is time to try the stick. The only stick big enough, as far as I can see would be something along the lines of only union carriers doing feed for union mainlines.

All that said, the unions, on a national level need to come up with a better strategy at contract time.

You are correct. ALPA needs centralized leadership and a way to resolve disputes between MEC's in house. ALPA needs one position, one agenda and one voice.

Airlines like SkyWest feed off the incoherent scope policies and failures of mainline MEC's. We do have the power to fix this, but as USAPA and the DAL/NWA deal indicates we lack the internal structure to bring renegade MEC's in line. (2Bn dollars plus job protections lost, someone needs to be taken behind the woodshed)

What if our military let every General & Admiral cut his own orders and agenda? One starts a fight in Africa, another in Afganistan, another in Korea... the effect of a lack of policy, leadership and control structure would ensure that every battle & war was lost. Instead we have to work together. We need to reform ALPA to get the procedures in place to be effective.

 

[TheRaven]

sorry andy, but u r wrong. Fuel burn on a 737-800 is the same at altitude as a CRJ 700. we carrry 157 pax, and a bunch of cargo that an RJ couldn't possiblly hold. CASM is what the game is all about nowdays. I'm betting the days of fee for departure are over for any regional contract in the future. Unfortuantely SkyW will not be able to count on those cushy preset profit margins that they have been able to in the past. much to the delight of pax, the aircraft will get bigger.

Mookie

This assumes you can fill all the seats.....if you are driving around in your 737-800 at a 60 percent load factor, you can't be as cost effective as a CRJ-700 with a 100 Percent load factor......acquisition cost also comes into play, weight based landing fees, etc.

what happened after 9/11......demand fell, and RJs began thriving as there wasn't demand to keep mainline aircraft on many routes, but RJs filled the void......its happening again as mainline aircraft are parked with no replacements in site

 

[Mookie]

This assumes you can fill all the seats.....if you are driving around in your 737-800 at a 60 percent load factor, you can't be as cost effective as a CRJ-700 with a 100 Percent load factor......acquisition cost also comes into play, weight based landing fees, etc.

what happened after 9/11......demand fell, and RJs began thriving as there wasn't demand to keep mainline aircraft on many routes, but RJs filled the void......its happening again as mainline aircraft are parked with no replacements in site

I must have missed it....when all of the RJ's were put on mainline routes...when did the record profits roll in due to "right sizing" at those carriers? oh that's right, Delta, United, and NW declared BK. American and CAL were teetering. And now that they all have huge RJ networks, how is that working out for them now?

Look...I flew the Rj proudly for 3 years, but now realize that no one can make money with those planes...with that YIELD. one more time...it doesn't matter what the load factor is on a flight if the YIELD is crap. and yes...you can make money on a 60% load factor if the YIELD is high enough. get it now??

Mookie

 

[PCL_128]

what happened after 9/11......demand fell, and RJs began thriving as there wasn't demand to keep mainline aircraft on many routes, but RJs filled the void......its happening again as mainline aircraft are parked with no replacements in site

Actually, more replacement jets are being parked than mainline planes this time around.

 

[Dubya]

Fins, no need to slam Skywest Pylot. I have known him for some time. You will not find a more vocal person trying to get his pilot group while he was at skywest to do all that he suggested with his first post of this thread and what you say above. He was part of the solution, not the problem. Dont get the two types of pilots at skywest confused. The majority are koolaid drinking, cancer producing lackeys. Skywest pylot was one voice going against the grain and eventually gave up when noone would listen....he moved on.

Anyone wonder why ALPA is a failure?

Hey sedona, maybe you can threaten me or tell me a really scary story of someone getting fired every week too.

What does Broken ALPA koolaid taste like?

W

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Anyone wonder why ALPA is a failure?

Hey sedona, maybe you can threaten me or tell me a really scary story of someone getting fired every week too.

What does Broken ALPA koolaid taste like?

W

Dubya,
I have first hand knowledge of many of the (as you say) "really scary stories" which Sedona speaks. Unfortunately for the deaf and blind pilots at SkyWest he speaks the truth. Is ALPA broken? Probably, but I would much rather drink the ALPA koolaid and try to enact positive change in our industry then continue in our current free fall.

Trust me. Sedona is on our side.