The Regional Situation

[Skywest Pylot]

At the regionals you have thousands of pilots many of whom are barely making ends meet while trying to pay off the ridiculous loans they took out for their flight training. These pilots are hungry and they are willing to fly just about anything to have a little better QOL and put a few extra bucks in their pockets. These pilots are hungry and dangerous (especially considering the current state of our industry).

If I was in charge at ALPA national, APA, SWAPA, etc. I would demand (not ask) that all regional feed flying be done by union pilots. I also would establish minimum pilot pay rates based on aircraft size (seating capacity) and seat position for those regional pilots. If the smaller jets are not economically feasible at the regionals then larger aircraft should be flown by mainline pilots. Pilots should not chip in for gas.

It seems that if you want to improve the situation at the major/mainline level, you've got to start at the bottom and work your way up building a solid foundation. If this situation is not dealt with soon I believe regional pilots will be flying 100+ seat mainline replacement aircraft (regardless of scope) History shows us the guys/gals at the top of this industry will sell out the guys/gals at the bottom without hesitation. A word of warning to those pilots: You cannot escape the sinking ship by climbing the mast leaving your collegues to drown below. We are all in this together. You got 5 more years of flying with age 65 (at the expense of my future upgrade) and are getting more international flying with open skies (at the potential expense of open skies part 2). These issues are dead (ALPA folded like a cheap lawn chair).

So, while we're all arguing about mergers and seniority list integration, maybe we should take some time to get the regional situation taken care of.

Thoughts?

 

[Andy Neill]

... If the smaller jets are not economically feasible at the regionals then larger aircraft should be flown by mainline pilots. ...Thoughts?

If a route is not economically feasible with a 50-seat jet flown at regional pay rates, it certainly won't be economically feasible being flown with a 100+ seat aircraft at mainline rates.

 

[AA717driver]

If a route is not economically feasible with a 50-seat jet flown at regional pay rates, it certainly won't be economically feasible being flown with a 100+ seat aircraft at mainline rates.

Not true. The CASM for 50-seaters even at Regional slave wages is STILL higher than a mainline NB. TC

 

[Andrew_VT]

If a route is not economically feasible with a 50-seat jet flown at regional pay rates, it certainly won't be economically feasible being flown with a 100+ seat aircraft at mainline rates.

Do you actually think crew pay is the biggest cost of getting X number of passengers from point A to B?

Do you actually believe what you wrote above? You don't see any flaws is this rationale?

Really? 4 50-seater regional pilots make so much less than 2 100-seater mainline pilots that it overrides all other factors? (fuel, rampies, infrastructure, gates, gate agents, a/c leases, landing fees, ect?)

 

[Mookie]

If a route is not economically feasible with a 50-seat jet flown at regional pay rates, it certainly won't be economically feasible being flown with a 100+ seat aircraft at mainline rates.

sorry andy, but u r wrong. Fuel burn on a 737-800 is the same at altitude as a CRJ 700. we carrry 157 pax, and a bunch of cargo that an RJ couldn't possiblly hold. CASM is what the game is all about nowdays. I'm betting the days of fee for departure are over for any regional contract in the future. Unfortuantely SkyW will not be able to count on those cushy preset profit margins that they have been able to in the past. much to the delight of pax, the aircraft will get bigger.

Mookie

 

[General Lee]

sorry andy, but u r wrong. Fuel burn on a 737-800 is the same at altitude as a CRJ 700. we carrry 157 pax, and a bunch of cargo that an RJ couldn't possiblly hold. CASM is what the game is all about nowdays. I'm betting the days of fee for departure are over for any regional contract in the future. Unfortuantely SkyW will not be able to count on those cushy preset profit margins that they have been able to in the past. much to the delight of pax, the aircraft will get bigger.

Mookie

With Aloha's demise thanks to higher fuel and Mesa, it shows that some routes can't be flown profitably with certain aircraft. Their 737-700s flying from the mainland to Hawaii just weren't cutting it with high fuel, and they needed larger planes to lower the CASM. How are your 738s doing to Hawaii by the way? You ANC guys still get to fly those, right? That must be awesome. Are you guys at Alaska getting any larger planes than the 739?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I also would establish minimum pilot pay rates based on aircraft size (seating capacity) and seat position for those regional pilots.

You "would" huh?

So how exactly "would" you do this?

How are guys at the mainline supposed to negotiate a contract at the regional level for a different company?

If the pilots at regional airline X want more money, why don't they walk? Best I recall, the Comair guys did this and were quite successfull.

You seem to be confused on this whole concept. What don't you get?

 

[Bruno82]

The cost of fuel has to be passed on to the customer. It seems that most other industries see it that way.

We need to stick together as well. Some of the hungry regional pilots are dangerous to unity. (I am one.)

 

[spacecadet1]

It just doesn't make sense to invest the time and money to become a regional pilot to work for nothing. Unless of course you're a loser.

 

[Mookie]

Wouldn't know...G.L....

Mookie

 

[Skywest Pylot]

You "would" huh?

So how exactly "would" you do this?

How are guys at the mainline supposed to negotiate a contract at the regional level for a different company?

That is why I said,

If I was in charge at ALPA national, APA, SWAPA, etc. I would demand (not ask) that all regional feed flying be done by union pilots.

The union would establish minimum pay rates per services rendered (by # of seats and seat position). No more of this lowering the bar for growth bullsh!t.

F.L. said,

If the pilots at regional airline X want more money, why don't they walk? Best I recall, the Comair guys did this and were quite successfull.

The Comair pilots got undercut by other carriers (Skywest included). IMO this is what needs to be fixed.

F.L. said,

You seem to be confused on this whole concept. What don't you get?

It seems pretty clear to me. It's time to fix the sinking ship at the Regional level. If the airlines can't make money without more concessions then it is time to raise ticket prices. Pilots should not chip in for gas nor growth. Especially considering the 100s of millions of dollars in stock and compensation that management has stolen from our industry this past year alone!

 

[Baze]

Jen Lee,

Are you still impressed by the size of your mighty 767? Trying to compensate for something are we?

Who cares if we never fly anything bigger than a 737-900? We care more about increasing the $$$$ in our pockets and increasing our time at home.

You're welcome to the exotic overnights and flying the heavy iron.

With Aloha's demise thanks to higher fuel and Mesa, it shows that some routes can't be flown profitably with certain aircraft. Their 737-700s flying from the mainland to Hawaii just weren't cutting it with high fuel, and they needed larger planes to lower the CASM. How are your 738s doing to Hawaii by the way? You ANC guys still get to fly those, right? That must be awesome. Are you guys at Alaska getting any larger planes than the 739?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Smacktard]

sorry andy, but u r wrong. Fuel burn on a 737-800 is the same at altitude as a CRJ 700. we carrry 157 pax, and a bunch of cargo that an RJ couldn't possiblly hold. CASM is what the game is all about nowdays. I'm betting the days of fee for departure are over for any regional contract in the future. Unfortuantely SkyW will not be able to count on those cushy preset profit margins that they have been able to in the past. much to the delight of pax, the aircraft will get bigger.

Mookie

If that's all there is to the equation why aren't 777's and 747's going to Brunswick GA? Oh yeah, 'cause they can't fill them up. There's a little more to this than just CASM. My guess is that it's CASM and flying the correct size aircraft the 'proper' number of times per day. You can cry all you want about the 50 seaters going away but until a market can support bigger/better planes, the 50's and 70's aren't going to disappear overnight.

 

[Mookie]

If that's all there is to the equation why aren't 777's and 747's going to Brunswick GA? Oh yeah, 'cause they can't fill them up. There's a little more to this than just CASM. My guess is that it's CASM and flying the correct size aircraft the 'proper' number of times per day. You can cry all you want about the 50 seaters going away but until a market can support bigger/better planes, the 50's and 70's aren't going to disappear overnight.

am not sure if you were trying to flame me, but I actually totally agree with you. There will be some communities that lose service b/c there will not be the YIELD (the only thing that really matters) to be able to support Brunswick, Ga.... For all of their apparent mis-management at least Alaska/Horizon has the right idea at the right time in fleet consolidation of the two companies (all 737 and Q400). we won't have that 50 seat problem.

thanks Baze...don't feed the comedian. i still think he's an aspiring pilot sitting around in his underwear making these brilliant assertions based on nothng other than 10hrs a day cruising blogs...but that's just my opinion.

peace out,
Mookie

 

[trip]

Fuel burn on a 737-800 is the same at altitude as a CRJ 700.Mookie

Your kidding right? I fly one and jumpseat on the other, fuel burn is typically double in the mid 30's