End ALPA - Begin War

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not defending ALPA compensation...I'm asking what you are doing to change it. It seems when your points are not getting accross, you default to calling me a cheerleader.

As Bringupthebird said, if you don't trust your leadership, why don't you just recall them? This is not a difficult concept. If I don't like the next President, I am simply not going to vote for him...I won't, as an alternative, form an Army to overthrow the gov't and "start over"

I am going to fight for a single list and an independent union on the Skywest property....saving ALPA isn't my concern....

 

[PCL_128]

Interesting that you bring up this issue....

The ASA and CMR MECs filed a similar grievance in 2000 after Delta purchased ASA and CMR.....ALPA refused to even pursue the grievance......

What you filed was a PID request. The PID didn't fit the language in the ALPA Bylaws or Admin Manual, so it was denied. It's amazing that after 8 years you still can't understand this simple concept.

 

[PCL_128]

BTW Joe, Rez doesn't work for Pinch-nickel.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Interesting that you bring up this issue....

The ASA and CMR MECs filed a similar grievance in 2000 after Delta purchased ASA and CMR.....ALPA refused to even pursue the grievance......

If this argument actually had merit, then the ASA and CMR MEC's had numerous other means of acheiving this goal (single-carrier petition, etc).

Would you please, instead of bringing up more "problems" provide us lowely, uneducated cheerleaders with your proposed alternative to ALPA. Is it non-union, independent union, etc? If it is another union, how will this one be structured to prevent all of the "politicking" that you have problems with at ALPA?

 

[SaturnPilot]

I am going to fight for a single list and an independent union on the Skywest property....saving ALPA isn't my concern....

an independent union at a regional?? The income from that idea will be so low that your dues will have to be upwards of 4% to even be able to function.

Nevermind the fact that Skywest pilots have proven time and time again that they don't want a union, they want to be at management's whim. Are you sure your independent union will actually get voted in, or do you think you will end up a single list at a non-union carrier?

 

[JoeMerchant]

What you filed was a PID request. The PID didn't fit the language in the ALPA Bylaws or Admin Manual, so it was denied. It's amazing that after 8 years you still can't understand this simple concept.

In addition to the PID, the ASA and CMR MECs filed grievances......Here is the response to the ASA MEC Chairman regarding ALPA's refusal to persue it...

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/woerthsgrv_veto.pdf

The ASA and CMR pilots tried every internal method available to resolve this issue....

PID, grievances, and BOD resolutions......

The Pinnacle/Colgan issue only highlights the doublestandard within ALPA....Apparantly a single list on a holding company property is only acceptable if both groups fly "little" airplanes.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

an independent union at a regional?? The income from that idea will be so low that your dues will have to be upwards of 4% to even be able to function.

Nevermind the fact that Skywest pilots have proven time and time again that they don't want a union, they want to be at management's whim. Are you sure your independent union will actually get voted in, or do you think you will end up a single list at a non-union carrier?

My first concern is a single list at Skywest Inc....without it the whipsaw will trump any perceived benefit of ALPA.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

In addition to the PID, the ASA and CMR MECs filed grievances......Here is the response to the ASA MEC Chairman regarding ALPA's refusal to persue it...

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/woerthsgrv_veto.pdf

The ASA and CMR pilots tried every internal method available to resolve this issue....

PID, grievances, and BOD resolutions......

The Pinnacle/Colgan issue only highlights the doublestandard within ALPA....Apparantly a single list on a holding company property is only acceptable if both groups fly "little" airplanes.....

Joe, the letter that you have linked here says that Duane will authorize and monitor for procedural fairness any individual grievance on this issue. So, ALPA would not file it because the LEGAL department said it has no merit, but Duane still said that he would support an individual's grievance on the issue. If this issue had merit, why was it not followed up on? The link above provides no argument that ALPA is holding the "little airplane people" down.

 

[737 Pylt]

Joe, the letter that you have linked here says that Duane will authorize and monitor for procedural fairness any individual grievance on this issue. So, ALPA would not file it because the LEGAL department said it has no merit, but Duane still said that he would support an individual's grievance on the issue. If this issue had merit, why was it not followed up on? The link above provides no argument that ALPA is holding the "little airplane people" down.

Hence why Joe and the rest of the rjdc girls spent $$thousands for the result of a nothing lawsuit.

Their PID was an attempt at a seniority steal that backfired like their pathetic little lawsuit. That's why Joe is so miserable!
Ask him about his tantrums while serving as secretary/treasurer!?

737

 

[SaturnPilot]

My first concern is a single list at Skywest Inc....without it the whipsaw will trump any perceived benefit of ALPA.....

I agree that a single list would be best for Skywest/ASA to prevent whipsaw. I don't see how dumping ALPA would get you there though...unless you want to join SAPA. Now there's an organization with TEETH!! And they don't have a presidential salary package to argue about...PERFECT!

 

[PCL_128]

In addition to the PID, the ASA and CMR MECs filed grievances......Here is the response to the ASA MEC Chairman regarding ALPA's refusal to persue it...

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/woerthsgrv_veto.pdf

The ASA and CMR pilots tried every internal method available to resolve this issue....

PID, grievances, and BOD resolutions......

The Pinnacle/Colgan issue only highlights the doublestandard within ALPA....Apparantly a single list on a holding company property is only acceptable if both groups fly "little" airplanes.....

Ah, I had forgotten about this little bit of stupidity. I find it amazing that you even bring it up, since Captain Woerth did such a great job of explaining the faults in the ASA MEC's arguments for a grievance. ALPA doesn't pursue grievances that have no merit. As Captain Woerth pointed out, ALPA would virtually always open the system board to any pilot that wants to file any grievance, but ALPA doesn't waste resources on grievances that you pull out of your nether regions that have no basis in reality. Nothing in any of the three applicable contracts required a seniority integration in this case. Completely different situation from what happened at PCL/CJC.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Hence why Joe and the rest of the rjdc girls spent $$thousands for the result of a nothing lawsuit.

those would be Joe's friends who also quit leadership positions with voting power to "attack ALPA from the outside"? Excellent strategy...

Their PID was an attempt at a seniority steal that backfired like their pathetic little lawsuit. That's why Joe is so miserable!
Ask him about his tantrums while serving as secretary/treasurer!?

737

yes, I've been filled in on those also.

 

[PCL_128]

My first concern is a single list at Skywest Inc....without it the whipsaw will trump any perceived benefit of ALPA.....

As usual, you didn't answer his question: how do you intend to fund a union where the average member only makes about $60k per year (on the high side, at that)? You won't be able to achieve any list at all without resources. As is common with you, you're ignoring reality and going off on some idealistic tangent based on your hatred of ALPA. When you join back up with reality, get back to me.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Keep it up Saturn....you are helping to make the point for those of us who are fed up with ALPA....

You let off the rest of your sentence: "...who think the best way to deal with things we don't like is to hold our breath until we turn blue...then sue!"

The BOD is a highly political body....much like the US Congress....Deals are cut to protect people....

The HORROR!

"politics"! "protect people"!

The POLITICS you engaged in to achieve YOUR agenda? Why that was just an inspiried effort for a noble cause...right?

HA!

Face it, Poindexter...your Get Rich Quick scheme ran into the only possible way to run an interest-based collective (See also: "United States Of America" and "Constitution"): representational democracy.

That doesn't mean the "little people" who actually pay the bills agree with them....

Name a single small jet airline that "pays the bills". You know exactly who pays the bills at ALPA: The legacy airlines that you rail against.

ASA, CMR, PCL, MSA, etc are all subsidized by my dues.

It was highly unethical to change the formula so that DW didn't have to feel the pain that so many of the members felt after 911....

Pretty funny posting Herb's screed about compensation. His committee gave it's report to the Compensation Committee at the BOD. Remember who chaired THAT committee?

The President of ALPA gets a large compensation package that must be approved by a majority vote of the status reps in the entire Association. How'd that vote go? How'd YOUR reps vote?

If an ASA F/O were to get elected ALPA President, he/she would get the same package.

The Herndon elite lost touch a long time ago....

If they've "lost touch" with YOUR agenda, then all I can say is: Thank God!

Keep it up.....it helps to undermine ALPA.....

Keep suing, loser.

 

[N2264J]

Democray by definition follows the majority which ALPA does not. ALPA is a republic.

ALPA is neither a republic or a democracy. It is an oligarchy run by the five largest MECs which masquerades as a democracy.

If ALPA's value to the piloting profession were obvious, a few disgruntled comments on an anonymous web board wouldn't raise much of a stir.

That the sycophants on here are defending ALPA so vigorously seems to acknowledge the fact that the legacy MECs have screwed this association up so badly that its future as a viable entity is in serious question.

In other words, they wouldn't be sqeaking so loudly in ALPA's defense if they didn't wonder themselves.

 

[PCL_128]

To paraphrase Mark Twain, rumors of ALPA's demise are greatly exaggerated. With or without the AAA crybabies, ALPA will be just fine. It would simply be a lot stronger with them. We are better off together than separate.

 

[SaturnPilot]

ALPA is neither a republic or a democracy. It is an oligarchy run by the five largest MECs which masquerades as a democracy.

If ALPA's value to the piloting profession were obvious, a few disgruntled comments on an anonymous web board wouldn't raise much of a stir.

That the sycophants on here are defending ALPA so vigorously seems to acknowledge the fact that the legacy MECs have screwed this association up so badly that its future as a viable entity is in serious question.

In other words, they wouldn't be sqeaking so loudly in ALPA's defense if they didn't wonder themselves.

very informative post...

I'm not on here to speak loudly in ALPA's defense. If there is a better alternative to ALPA, I'm all for it. I just haven't heard one single workable detailed solution to the "ALPA problem"...just a bunch of extremely general rants about some issue with absolutely no facts to support it.

Sounds like you have a problem with being allied with the legacy MECs. Do you advocate then for all airlines to have only independent unions? Do you believe that as 40 something independents we will be as effective?

 

[PCL_128]

SaturnPilot, just for a heads up, N2264J is another RJDC wanker. Just another loser like Joey. He has no solutions or constructive dialog, just whining and pseudo-facts that he spreads as gospel.

 

[N2264J]

...just for a heads up...

PCL_128 abandoned his pilot group as an ALPA status rep. in the middle of contract negotitations to take a job at a non ALPA carrier.

Then he comes on here talking about how great ALPA is and apparently sees no inconsistency in his own prattle.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128 abandoned his pilot group as an ALPA status rep. in the middle of contract negotitations to take a job at a non ALPA carrier.

Then he comes on here talking about how great ALPA is and apparently sees no inconsistency in his own prattle.

As someone who has been at both ALPA and non-ALPA carriers, I think I'm a pretty good witness for the worth of ALPA. There is simply no comparison. ALPA is worth every penny of dues and then some.

P.S. You can call it "abandoning" if you wish, but not all of us wish to be regional lifers as yourself.

 

[jke406]

As someone who has been at both ALPA and non-ALPA carriers, I think I'm a pretty good witness for the worth of ALPA. There is simply no comparison. ALPA is worth every penny of dues and then some.

Looking for a kickback someday?

ALPA had its time, a time that's come and gone. It is now a corrupt dinosaur. It sells its majority out. It rolls over to leftists, and cannot possibly speak for the huge variety of pilot groups it represents.

It is a shameful blight on our profession.

We have seen how well the unions have done for their membership in Michigan, etc. with all the outsourcing that's occurred. What makes anyone think were immune, or that ALPA won't sell us out there, too?

Hello, Cabotage. Thanks, ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Ah, the flightinfo village idiot now makes his appearance!

 

[SaturnPilot]

PCL_128 abandoned his pilot group as an ALPA status rep. in the middle of contract negotitations to take a job at a non ALPA carrier.

Then he comes on here talking about how great ALPA is and apparently sees no inconsistency in his own prattle.

seriously...You expect him to have stayed at PCL and foregone career advancement so that he could stay at an ALPA carrier? Weak argument.

I guess everybody that volunteers at the regional level should just be frozen in place then?

 

[SaturnPilot]

yet another post completely void of any fact or meaningful discussion what-so-ever:

ALPA had its time, a time that's come and gone. It is now a corrupt dinosaur.

informative...care to back up that with any actual fact to debate?

It sells its majority out. It rolls over to leftists, and cannot possibly speak for the huge variety of pilot groups it represents.

yet again informative...what leftists is ALPA rolling over to? According to your post, pilot groups binding together is actually bad. I assume then that you would prefer every airline to have an in house union? Care to tell me how that is going to work as effectively?

It is a shameful blight on our profession.

yet again, nothing to back up this statement...no substance to the post.

We have seen how well the unions have done for their membership in Michigan, etc. with all the outsourcing that's occurred. What makes anyone think were immune, or that ALPA won't sell us out there, too?

is ALPA going to sell out MI residents now?

Hello, Cabotage. Thanks, ALPA

yes, Cabotage...clearly ALPA's fault. They invented it and lobbied for it, right??

If you reply to this thread, please let us know what you think the proper solution to ALPA is, AND how it is actually going to work. i.e. how will it be different, how will you sell it, etc.

 

[jke406]

here's the problem: you ALPA stooges seem to think you are the only answer to the problem.

Individual pilot unions, a la SWAPA and APA, are much better at representing their pilot groups' best interests. There is no way national can adequately represent so may groups whose best interests are at odds. At least APA has the balls to leave no doubt whatsoever what its priorities are in their negotiations. ALPA, not so much.

ALPA is nothing more than a cult of power that is so far removed from the everyday concerns of the pilots it represents, it's pathetic.

The only reason it exists is to keep itself in power and garner dues--to sustain that power.

Don't even pretend that ALPA did not sell out on Age 65--and is already laying the groundwork for selling out on cabotage.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, you really are dense. ALPA has no conflict whatsoever in representing each pilot group, because each MEC operates independently when negotiating contracts. The purpose of the National union is to provide assistance and resources when necessary. You praise the APA, but the APA pays ALPA a ton of money every year for services such as legal and communications. Without ALPA, APA would be hosed. Get a clue.

 

[SaturnPilot]

here's the problem: you ALPA stooges seem to think you are the only answer to the problem.

Individual pilot unions, a la SWAPA and APA, are much better at representing their pilot groups' best interests. There is no way national can adequately represent so may groups whose best interests are at odds. At least APA has the balls to leave no doubt whatsoever what its priorities are in their negotiations. ALPA, not so much.

ALPA is nothing more than a cult of power that is so far removed from the everyday concerns of the pilots it represents, it's pathetic.

The only reason it exists is to keep itself in power and garner dues--to sustain that power.

Don't even pretend that ALPA did not sell out on Age 65--and is already laying the groundwork for selling out on cabotage.

I'm not a stooge and have never claimed to be an answer to "the problem". I'm merely asking you what your solution is in detail and how you're going to get it done. If it's better than ALPA, great.

I don't see how SWAPA and the APA are better at representing their groups' interests than ALPA. Care, once again, to back that up with any examples?

You talk about Age 65 and cabotage, but if we are all independent with no national union, who is going to be talking to congress about those issues? nobody??

How are the regionals going to be able to survive with independent unions? They won't even collect enough dues money to survive?

Your post is once again void of any meaningful discussion. Instead you come back with statements that hint of a fantasy novel. Please, try to post in detail your solution, how it is going to work specifically, how it is different than ALPA, how it will be funded, how you will garner support for it, etc.

 

[Occam's Razor]

ALPA is neither a republic or a democracy. It is an oligarchy run by the five largest MECs which masquerades as a democracy.

Interesting. Your contention is that the 5 largest MEC's always see eye-to-eye on every issue.

Not accurate, but interesting. "Madam Cleo" style interesting...

If ALPA's value to the piloting profession were obvious, a few disgruntled comments on an anonymous web board wouldn't raise much of a stir.

They don't. Get over yourself. In this case you're a game show on a rainy day. Amusement for a few.

That the sycophants on here are defending ALPA so vigorously seems to acknowledge the fact that the legacy MECs have screwed this association up so badly that its future as a viable entity is in serious question.

Here's an idea: Sue again! Maybe you can flush more of YOUR "sycophant's" money down a new rat hole! Or Amway...have you considered Amway? Seems like a natural follow-on to your last foray into multi-level marketing.

In other words, they wouldn't be sqeaking so loudly in ALPA's defense if they didn't wonder themselves.

Ok. Here you've got a tiny particle of accuracy. ALPA has warts. Hairy warts. Large hairy warts.

There are a few stunning things that ALPA does not do well.

But rather than blame the "vast large jet conspiracy" for them, as you do...I tend to view them as byproducts of having pilots running an interest-based organization.

Were we as homogenous as we ought to be, it wouldn't be an issue. But, as you well know, we tend to have differing priorities when we evaluate various issues facing our organization and our profession.

You thought you should be able to achieve cool goodies without having to pay any part of their price. When it turned out everybody else disagreed with you...you sued.

You lost.

So welcome to Ironyville. Population: N2264J

It's a (thankfully!) small town where pilots accuse ALPA of not doing right by their constituents...which is EXACTLY what the RJDC did to the morons who gave them money!

That pervasive smell?

"eau de loser"

 

[Occam's Razor]

Individual pilot unions, a la SWAPA and APA, are much better at representing their pilot groups' best interests. There is no way national can adequately represent so may groups whose best interests are at odds.

Attention FDX pilots! jke406...the Oracle of the Profession, sez your contract never happened.

Too many ALPA cooties!

doosh...

 

[Redmeat]

Occam, where have you been man!

post on the merger threads ...PLEASE!!