End ALPA - Begin War

[Bringupthebird]

With all the braggadocio and machismo going on here about dumping ALPA, one only has to look at the efforts of airlines such as JetBlue whose pilots are willing to entertain such ideas as modifying flight and duty time regs in order to give their company's a competitive advantage, to see the future in a fractionalized pilot group.

When one group wishes to pursue a policy they feel will aid their pilots in achieving certain goals, other pilots may be pressured to adopt (or required in the case of regulation change) the same changes to remain competitive. Do you want to lose your long-term disability to fund Virgin America's dental plan. for example? Do you want to be forced to trade your vacation benefits to avoid Stand-up overnights, just because another tribe has gone to stand-ups as a competitive measure?

Age 65 is given as a reason to leave ALPA, but if there was no ALPA (or any central pilot union) Age 65 would have been the law of the land many years ago.

So, why when the industry is facing looming consolidation, do the pilots foolishly wish to be fractured?

 

[Ben Franklin]

So, why when the industry is facing looming consolidation, do the pilots foolishly wish to be fractured?

Because pilots don't look in the mirror when they are placing blame for their lot in life.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[PCL_128]

Because pilots don't look in the mirror when they are placing blame for their lot in life.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

Bingo!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

With all the braggadocio and machismo going on here about dumping ALPA, one only has to look at the efforts of airlines such as JetBlue whose pilots are willing to entertain such ideas as modifying flight and duty time regs in order to give their company's a competitive advantage, to see the future in a fractionalized pilot group.

When one group wishes to pursue a policy they feel will aid their pilots in achieving certain goals, other pilots may be pressured to adopt (or required in the case of regulation change) the same changes to remain competitive. Do you want to lose your long-term disability to fund Virgin America's dental plan. for example? Do you want to be forced to trade your vacation benefits to avoid Stand-up overnights, just because another tribe has gone to stand-ups as a competitive measure?

Age 65 is given as a reason to leave ALPA, but if there was no ALPA (or any central pilot union) Age 65 would have been the law of the land many years ago.

So, why when the industry is facing looming consolidation, do the pilots foolishly wish to be fractured?

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you a SWAPA member?

And also correct me if I am wrong but you also supported age 65 in every thread I read.

So what do you know about being misrepresented? Your views were in complete agreement with SWAPA. And SWAPA represents a predatory company who is willing to undercut anyone anytime.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So, why when the industry is facing looming consolidation, do the pilots foolishly wish to be fractured?

No, they wish to be unified around the majority. ALPA feels it knows better than the majority and has chosen to ignore the majority views in numerous issues and operates in SECRET to protect its over reached control.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Bingo!

And what union represents your company? Air Tran is not an ALPA company.

Your union is all about undercutting DALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Your union is all about undercutting DALPA.

Biggest bunch of bullsh-- ever posted on this board.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Biggest bunch of bullsh-- ever posted on this board.

Let me get this straight. You are disputing the fact that Air Tran has not undercut Delta in every way possible? What planet have you been living on?

"In a game of how-low-can-you-go, AirTran Airways is trying to undercut top gun Southwest Airlines by offering steeper discounts on flights out of Midway Airport."

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=19096

The article is one of hundreds that can easily be found on the subject of Air Tran undercutting the competition because is does not have any other advantage at all. This also also shows SWA is the number one under cutter of standards in the industry but in this case was beat out by Air Tran.

 

[Ben Franklin]

ALPA feels it knows better than the majority and has chosen to ignore the majority views in numerous issues and operates in SECRET to protect its over reached control.

You make ALPA sound like a third party that exists outside the control of the line pilots who comprise its ranks.

It might very well be you that operates in secret while ignoring the very means by which OUR C&BL's give you to effect change.

Perhaps you might author a resolution to change what you don't like about ALPA. Make ALPA your ALPA, too.

Oops, I guess throwing rocks in virtual land from behind an anonymous screenname is more enthralling and rewarding for you.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[JoeMerchant]

The direction of this post has already answered the original post....Doesn't matter what alphabet group "represents" you.....we aren't unified...

USAir/AWA is ALPA but they are far from unified.....

Unification is a noble idea....ALPA can't do that.....

Merger/Seniority/Age 60/Scope/Political Endorsements....we don't agree on things...and we look at them from our perspective......

 

[luckytohaveajob]

You make ALPA sound like a third party that exists outside the control of the line pilots who comprise its ranks.

ALPA National does operate outside the oversight of the policies it pursues. Take age 65 as a prime example.

My particular MEC has just public ally stated that due to the sensitivity of the current situations they will not be able to provide any details of the issues that will effect my career.

Perhaps you might author a resolution to change what you don't like about ALPA. Make ALPA your ALPA, too.

It is being done right now. http://www.dalpilots.com/

 

[Bringupthebird]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you a SWAPA member?

And also correct me if I am wrong but you also supported age 65 in every thread I read.

So what do you know about being misrepresented? Your views were in complete agreement with SWAPA. And SWAPA represents a predatory company who is willing to undercut anyone anytime.

OK, I'll correct you. I'm not a member of SWAPA.

Yes, I support Age 65, and for many years I was in disagreement with ALPA's position. But you're missing the point of the post. Do you think having no union among carriers would have protected you from change any better?

SWAPA looks out for SWAPA and if you have hundreds of little SWAPAs running around pursuing their own agendas without regard for the profession as a whole, what chance is there that real meaningful gains will be made across the board?

Stained glass is pretty to look at, but it isn't bulletproof.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Unification is a noble idea....ALPA can't do that.....

Merger/Seniority/Age 60/Scope/Political Endorsements....we don't agree on things...and we look at them from our perspective......

So then why does ALPA state it can? And why do ALPA supporters believe it can?

Did ALPA support Comair in the late 1990's when DALPA has other needs. The two competed, and ALPA failed Comair.

ALPA is an all things to all people on the front. But in reality it is a very secretive, closed, back room organization with a UAL and DAL agenda.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Stained glass is pretty to look at, but it isn't bulletproof.

So then by your own logic, why is ALPA capable of makinga bulletproof stained glass window?

ALPA is an amalgamation of competing interests unable to represent, in any meaningful way, anything other than what it wants to represent which is DAL and UAL while lumping us all in to tow the rope.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So then why does ALPA state it can? And why do ALPA supporters believe it can?

Did ALPA support Comair in the late 1990's when DALPA has other needs. The two competed, and ALPA failed Comair.

ALPA is an all things to all people on the front. But in reality it is a very secretive, closed, back room organization with a UAL and DAL agenda.

I agree with you.....ALPA is a very loose association of competing interests all pulling in different directions.....Even within a pilot group there is a tug of war between junior and senior....

ALPA promises things that it can't deliver......

 

[PCL_128]

Let me get this straight. You are disputing the fact that Air Tran has not undercut Delta in every way possible? What planet have you been living on?

AirTran management may decide to undercut Delta's fares, but that has nothing to do with me or my pilot group or my union. You stated that the NPA is undercutting DALPA, and that is complete and utter bullsh--. We just turned down a contract that would have paid our 717 and 737 Captains more than Delta pays their 767-400 Captains! We just turned down a contract because we refuse to give up scope like DALPA did over and over again. We aren't undercutting you. Period.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is an all things to all people on the front. But in reality it is a very secretive, closed, back room organization with a UAL and DAL agenda.

ALPA is a democracy. You simply don't have the skills and intelligence to operate in a democracy, so you b--ch and whine like a little kid. Pathetic.

 

[seefive]

The FedEx MEC follows their own agenda regardless of what its members want. It's simply factual. Hardly a democracy.

We need ALPA, but we need leaders who want to support the majority's wishes and truly "do the right thing". As for ALPA national, each union should represent its people and vote that way with national. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[JoeMerchant]

.....what happens if the majority position harms those who are in the minority? Do you really expect the minority to just say "OK my union is doing something that harms me so I will continue to support it"?

What is "the right thing"?

Is the majority always right?

 

[PCL_128]

The FedEx MEC follows their own agenda regardless of what its members want. It's simply factual. Hardly a democracy.

No, it's still a democracy. You have the ability to depose those leaders if they aren't doing as you want them to do. All it takes is a majority vote. Democracy at its finest.

 

[PCL_128]

.....what happens if the majority position harms those who are in the minority? Do you really expect the minority to just say "OK my union is doing something that harms me so I will continue to support it"?

What is "the right thing"?

Is the majority always right?

Of course not. That's why a Constitution is in place to protect the rights of the minority. And that's why ALPA's governing bodies are setup in a way to give a voice to the minority groups.

 

[SaturnPilot]

And SWAPA represents a predatory company who is willing to undercut anyone anytime.

SWAPA represents the pilots at Southwest. SWA management is the one who undercuts other carriers.

ALPA feels it knows better than the majority and has chosen to ignore the majority views in numerous issues and operates in SECRET to protect its over reached control.

What exactly is ALPA doing in "secret"?

And what union represents your company? Air Tran is not an ALPA company.

Your union is all about undercutting DALPA.

once again...his union represents Airtran pilots...management at Airtran is the one who tries to undercut Delta...much like how Delta management may try to undercut American, etc.

My particular MEC has just public ally stated that due to the sensitivity of the current situations they will not be able to provide any details of the issues that will effect my career.

depending on what specifically they are referring to, that could be a good thing. I don't want my MEC blasting out emails to my entire pilot group saying, "our strategy against management in this situation is going to be ____, unless management does ____, in which case we will do ____...our bottom line is ____ , etc". Some things are better left confidential.

 

[weasel_lips]

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=179&year=2006

This is what ALPA is all about.

Time for them to go.

 

[Ben Franklin]

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=179&year=2006

This is what ALPA is all about.

Time for them to go.

learning about ALPA from this (or any other) union-busting website is like learning US history from an Islamist/Iranian grade school

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[PCL_128]

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=179&year=2006

This is what ALPA is all about.

Time for them to go.

And the ignorance keeps on coming!

 

[737 Pylt]

And the ignorance keeps on coming!

PCL:
Check this out.....
Asa Mec Str$ 0$ 13,718$ 13,718

So when JB was STR at ASA, he got 13,718 in incentives all for just showing up and stealing notes from meetings!?
Wow, maybe he's right, ALPA is broken, paying a tool like that for nothing!

737

 

[800Dog]

AirTran management may decide to undercut Delta's fares, but that has nothing to do with me or my pilot group or my union. You stated that the NPA is undercutting DALPA, and that is complete and utter bullsh--. We just turned down a contract that would have paid our 717 and 737 Captains more than Delta pays their 767-400 Captains! We just turned down a contract because we refuse to give up scope like DALPA did over and over again. We aren't undercutting you. Period.

Airtran and other airlines undercut the major/legacy carriers for years which is partly to blame for the fact that legacy pay is currently so low. There is no getting around that. Having said that, I hope the Airtran pilots get a great contract with pay significantly higher than Deltas. Something for Delta pilots to shoot for.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:
Check this out.....
Asa Mec Str$ 0$ 13,718$ 13,718

So when JB was STR at ASA, he got 13,718 in incentives all for just showing up and stealing notes from meetings!?
Wow, maybe he's right, ALPA is broken, paying a tool like that for nothing!

737

You're looking at the wrong position. JB was Council 112 ST, not MEC ST. His compensation was $0 according to the figures I'm looking at.

 

[PCL_128]

Airtran and other airlines undercut the major/legacy carriers for years which is partly to blame for the fact that legacy pay is currently so low. There is no getting around that.

You're absolutely right. But keep in mind that our current agreement was signed in 2001 when this was a tiny airline with a much smaller pilot group. The overwhelming majority of the pilots here now weren't even at AAI during the signing of that contract, so we had nothing to do with that undercutting.

 

[SaturnPilot]

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=179&year=2006

This is what ALPA is all about.

Time for them to go.

I find it hard to believe that someone with your experience would believe the crap that is on this website