AirTran to Sell two more planes; tougher union talks ahead?

[scarlet]

Where was this press release??

 

[FlyWolf]

Good luck in your negotiations guys, I will be the first to come walk the line in support (hey, there are at least 12 MKE-ATL flights between Midwest and AirTran per day) I think we are watching your negotiations very close because ours will start soon.

Stay strong.

 

[Andy]

Where was this press release??

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/business_tourism_aviation/2008/03/airtran-to-sell.html

http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_talk/2008/03/airtran-also-cu.html

I don't think that these aircraft were sold due to union negotiations; it looks like they've been trimming growth estimates in the last couple of weeks. It'll be interesting to see Feb's load factors.

 

[Ty Webb]

Jeez you air tran guys are angry. Lemme see, didn't your company used to be called, value jet? Get over yourself tough guy.

Hmm . . . . I don't know. Maybe you should ask one of the dozens of "retired" former Delta captains that work here now.

I've flown with quite a few of them . . . they're mostly former 76ER Check Airmen. Great guys- obviously, you're nothing like them.

 

[Eagle757shark]

What's more, Fornaro said off-the-charts oil prices -- which he said have climbed past $100 a barrel -- could also impact AirTran's protracted negotiations with its pilots union. The two sides have been negotiating a new deal for nearly two years.
The pilots union rejected AirTran's latest offer last fall. But Fornaro said AirTran may not make a better offer -- or even a similar one -- given today's oil prices.
"I would say right now I'm not sure we would put that agreement back on the table. That was a $65-a-barrel agreement and that's not where we are," he said. "We're taking a fresh eye as to what we're going to put on the table."

Andy, this is what has upset so many pilots at AirTran. AirTran changed the CEO and new union leadership was elected. There was hope that this would lead to a fresh start and possibly a better relationship between management and the union. Negotiations have not even begun under our new leadership yet and the company is already firing a shot across the bow. If AirTran needs to slow growth or sell airplanes to make the company stronger, then that is what needs to be done. However, when this pilot group works as hard as it does to make this airline the very best, and the CEO fires a shot at our union like this, it will just change the morale of this pilot group. These people communicate with us like we are idiots. Hell we all know fuel is over $100 dollars a barrel. We all understand the country is on the verge of a recession. Every time I go to the gas station or run to the grocery store I get a economics lesson. The majority of AirTran pilots are college educated and have been with other airlines. AirTran pilots want to be compensated and rewarded for the millions of dollars they save AirTran. Negotiate behind closed doors through the negotiators not in the media.

 

[Andy]

Andy, this is what has upset so many pilots at AirTran. AirTran changed the CEO and new union leadership was elected. There was hope that this would lead to a fresh start and possibly a better relationship between management and the union. Negotiations have not even begun under our new leadership yet and the company is already firing a shot across the bow. If AirTran needs to slow growth or sell airplanes to make the company stronger, then that is what needs to be done. However, when this pilot group works as hard as it does to make this airline the very best, and the CEO fires a shot at our union like this, it will just change the morale of this pilot group. These people communicate with us like we are idiots. Hell we all know fuel is over $100 dollars a barrel. We all understand the country is on the verge of a recession. Every time I go to the gas station or run to the grocery store I get a economics lesson. The majority of AirTran pilots are college educated and have been with other airlines. AirTran pilots want to be compensated and rewarded for the millions of dollars they save AirTran. Negotiate behind closed doors through the negotiators not in the media.

I agree; the comment about pilot contract negotiations was unneccessary.
He's taken two unrelated events and linked them together.

 

[maxblast72]

You been doing surveys on your layovers? And who (dare I ask) is the "hardest"?

Sorry, I left one word out. Guess I need to proof read more often.

I was just quoting our union president who has the stated that we are the second hardest working pilot group (Southwest #1) in term of block hours flown per year. Now if we could just get the same number of days off per month as Southwest.

 

[Clyde Frog]

operationally, airtran looks pretty good. it might be time for that to change!

 

[maxblast72]

What the hell have you been smoking?

Take a look at junior Captain pay and think again. Our junior Captains are the lowest paid 737/A320 Captains of any similar-size airline (or larger).

Don't forget, Cletus, that many of us Captains voted down a substantial pay raise- in part, because the TA would have screwed the junior guys.

Not smoking anything. I am just saying TA1 and TA2 were much more favorable to Captains than First Officers. Although I know some Captains voted no on the TA, I would bet that about 90% of the pilots over 6 years voted yes and 90% of the pilots less than 6 years voted no. I would love to see the results broken down by seniority. I think the work should be done on FO compensation first and then worry about Captains instead of vice versa like AP and SH did last year.

As for the Junior Captain pay, there are two sides to the arguement. I have a buddy that I flew with at a previous airline that left for Frontier one week before I left to come to Airtran in early 2004. I would take my situation and pay before his any day of the week. I would take my situation over a pilot hired in 2004 at any other airline except Fedex, UPS, or Southwest. I don't subscibe to the philosophy that the grass is always greener somewhere else.

Am I suggestion that we take concessions, no way. We are doing a very good job keeping Airtran profitable over the past 8 years and need to share in the profits (I am a big fan of a profit sharing program).

I am just waiting to see if people will view flying as a necessity and pay these higher ticket prices as they pay higher prices for all the other necessities in life. I just hope people have become so used to air travel that they consider travel a necesssity and don't reduce their traveling.

 

[Lear70]

Andy, this is what has upset so many pilots at AirTran. AirTran changed the CEO and new union leadership was elected. There was hope that this would lead to a fresh start and possibly a better relationship between management and the union. Negotiations have not even begun under our new leadership yet and the company is already firing a shot across the bow. If AirTran needs to slow growth or sell airplanes to make the company stronger, then that is what needs to be done. However, when this pilot group works as hard as it does to make this airline the very best, and the CEO fires a shot at our union like this, it will just change the morale of this pilot group. These people communicate with us like we are idiots. Hell we all know fuel is over $100 dollars a barrel. We all understand the country is on the verge of a recession. Every time I go to the gas station or run to the grocery store I get a economics lesson. The majority of AirTran pilots are college educated and have been with other airlines. AirTran pilots want to be compensated and rewarded for the millions of dollars they save AirTran. Negotiate behind closed doors through the negotiators not in the media.

What he's doing is union-busting 101, in the "managing expectations" category.

They're coming to the table, and this is their way of telling the pilots that they shouldn't expect anything and SHOULD be grateful just to get the LAFO #2 back.

They just don't get it.

We warned them in negotiations that selling out the junior pilots (new-hire pay cut and f/o's not even COLA) plus the scope cuts would equal a NO vote.

They didn't listen.

Similarly, they're being told that bringing another substandard T.A. to the table (and even the vaguest ATTEMPT to bring LESS than they brought last time) will only anger the pilot group.

I don't expect them to listen.

They have their own belief system in Orlando. Reality hasn't set in that the pilots of airTran are planning on staying here for a CAREER and will fight to make it a CAREER and not just a "quick upgrade" (which isn't going to happen).

No one's asking for SWA plus 1% (at least most of us aren't), but something's wrong when a company that has been consistently profitable for almost a decade during the worst downturn in aviation history can't even give current book + COLA and the executives have been gaining double-digits in compensation every year.

Something's wrong with this picture, and I'm glad to see the AAI pilots riled up about it. In fact, thanks, Bob, for helping get people fired up again. I was worried about complacency setting back in again. I appreciate your support, way to go, Bob!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hmm . . . . I don't know. Maybe you should ask one of the dozens of "retired" former Delta captains that work here now.

I've flown with quite a few of them . . . they're mostly former 76ER Check Airmen. Great guys- obviously, you're nothing like them.

Oh, That brings legitimacy to the table.....

Gee!! a retired guy with a lump at Airtran, (GASP!)......newsflash...nobody QUITS to go there.....

AirtranNewhire/ Delta retiree: "I have no clue why you guys are so angry, I love to fly!!!"

Standby for the cancer to start eating away when the contract talks get hot and heavy....

 

[Kharma Police]

Oh, That brings legitimacy to the table.....

Gee!! a retired guy with a lump at Airtran, (GASP!)......newsflash...nobody QUITS to go there.....

AirtranNewhire/ Delta retiree: "I have no clue why you guys are so angry, I love to fly!!!"

Standby for the cancer to start eating away when the contract talks get hot and heavy....

I would be angry too if we took the pay cuts you guys took before, during, and after bankruptcy. As for anger, well, have fun merging lists, you guys better get it done before they send it to arbitration!

 

[B737 Guy]

Hmm . . . . I don't know. Maybe you should ask one of the dozens of "retired" former Delta captains that work here now.

I've flown with quite a few of them . . . they're mostly former 76ER Check Airmen. Great guys- obviously, you're nothing like them.

Oh, this is laughable! Our "retired guys" are working there now. Let's see, they worked how many years at the industry's leading pay scales, retired with $1+ million lump sum. I guess they don't do it for money.
BTW tough guy, how many of your pilots have left to go to work at Delta?

 

[B737 Guy]

I would be angry too if we took the pay cuts you guys took before, during, and after bankruptcy. As for anger, well, have fun merging lists, you guys better get it done before they send it to arbitration!

Let's see, we went through bankruptcy, and had to agree to additional paycuts, yet still our 737 positions top yours. I can see now why you guys are so angry.

 

[PCL_128]

FDJ2, thanks for the well wishes. It's a shame that some of your fellow DAL pilots don't have the same class.

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

Let's see, we went through bankruptcy, and had to agree to additional paycuts, yet still our 737 positions top yours. I can see now why you guys are so angry.

Great, some new hire DAL dooshe to join the party. Our #'s are green and your's are red...thanks for playing.
ps. I wish our brown leather jackets could write checks your double-breasted jackets actually couldn't cash without help from Uncle Sam.

 

[BigMeat]

Doesnt Airtran have scope for aircraft over 50 seats. I think Delta gave theirs up. Good job Airtran make sure you guys fight to keep that. Its the biggest thing that has ruined this profession so far. I dont like seeing Delta colors on 90 seat "rjs".

 

[Whataburger]

Let's see, we went through bankruptcy, and had to agree to additional paycuts, yet still our 737 positions top yours. I can see now why you guys are so angry.

I would hope your 737 rates are better. Delta has been around 5 times longer than AirTran.

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

I would hope your 737 rates are better. Delta has been around 5 times longer than AirTran.

We're no threat baby, put down the sword.

 

[BigMeat]

I would hope your 737 rates are better. Delta has been around 5 times longer than AirTran.

And CAL has been around 40 years longer than SWA. We are still hoping for SWA payrates someday. The excuse that you guys fly to your limit is not an argument anymore. We all fly to the limit now. SWA pilots know how its done!!

 

[MINIME]

Oh, this is laughable! Our "retired guys" are working there now. Let's see, they worked how many years at the industry's leading pay scales, retired with $1+ million lump sum. I guess they don't do it for money.
BTW tough guy, how many of your pilots have left to go to work at Delta?

My suggestion would be for you to get over your "my pee pee is bigger than yours" attitude before it causes anymore damage. This is our problem in this industry! No unity whatsoever. Yes, as it stands right now your place of employment might be better than theirs. But it can be argued that all of us need improvements no matter how superior we might think we are.

Don't you think that it's in your best interest for these guys to fight the good fight? It could only help to further improve your situation, don't you think? Any help any of us could get, no matter how big or small should be welcome. We should support a pilot group that's trying to improve itself. Pointing fingers and little name calling amongst ourselves does not help the cause.

Right now they seem good and ready to stick their necks out and fight. Are you ready to do that when your time comes around? Sometimes it takes a little anger to realize that one has to stand up and fight. Thus far they have shown that they're willing to try. To my knowledge, they haven't shown any signs of caving in to managemet. Until they do, it should be our responsibility to support them in that fight.

 

[Kharma Police]

Let's see, we went through bankruptcy, and had to agree to additional paycuts, yet still our 737 positions top yours. I can see now why you guys are so angry.

You didn't "have to agree" to anything, they "took it" while DALPA watched over and over without a fight.

 

[Moustache]

How many accidents has Delta had? Don't be throwing stones chief.

management/finance or aircraft accidents?

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

B737 Guy, he lost his jobs because he was furloughed not because he is angry.

Maybe true, but, he must be one hell of a good liar to get hired on somewhere else with his attitude. I suppose some slip by HR after all.

 

[spitfire1500]

Let's see, we went through bankruptcy, and had to agree to additional paycuts, yet still our 737 positions top yours. I can see now why you guys are so angry.

Would you shut the hell up and go to a Delta thread!

 

[Andy]

Yes, as it stands right now your place of employment might be better than theirs.

in this business, that's very fleeting. Who were top dogs 20 years ago? 10? Does anyone expect the current top dogs to remain there 10 years from now? You might expect it, but history tells a different story.

 

[Whataburger]

We're no threat baby, put down the sword.

I have no raised sword for AirTran. I have a bunch of good buddies there and wish yall the best.

 

[71driver]

This just in Airtran has announced more fare sales i.e.;

atl-lax 139.00
atl-ewr 84.00 oh but you have to use them bye Nov 2008!!!! WTF are you kidding me??!!

Airtran mgnmt is lame lame lame does anybody else and I mean anybody see how weak Orlando is!!! I feel like I am in the twilight zone. This is why management doesn't like to talk about RASM it is always about cost. How do these guys get these jobs honestly. Bob is just trying to keep us afloat in the hopes we will be a thorn in somebodies side enough so they will bye us, we have THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE MACHINE OUT THERE AND HE IS SELLING BACK OPTIONS!! This guy and his cronies are as handy as tits on a bull....oh and bye the way WE WILL NOT SUBSIDIZE YOUR POOR PERFORMANCE PERIOD!

 

[Ty Webb]

Although I know some Captains voted no on the TA, I would bet that about 90% of the pilots over 6 years voted yes and 90% of the pilots less than 6 years voted no. I would love to see the results broken down by seniority.

I am over 6 years, and I and everyone else I associate with voted not only "no", but "HELL NO".

Maybe you're just flying with the wrong crowd!

TW

 

[Thunderchief]

I have no raised sword for AirTran. I have a bunch of good buddies there and wish yall the best.

This is the kind of unity we all need! Doesn't matter if you work for DAL, SWA, AAI... DOES NOT MATTER! United we bargain, divided we beg!

737 pilot, you should be rooting for AAI to top your pay by a huge margin. Why? More negotiating power for your pilot group next time around. Does Delta have a long storied history? Sure, but does that make them 'better than' Airtran? I'll give you that and say yes, but WHO CARES, can your or my Airline MAKE MONEY AND SURVIVE? That's the only thing that matters and if you think otherwise you're kidding yourself!!!