Northwest Pilots Stand to Gain Alot....

[filejw]

From another message board:


Unofficial" contract details from a normally reliable source.

....An immediate raise to the 'Delta' rates (8% to 14% increase
depending on

aircraft and seat).

....A 4 year deal with raises of 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4%.

....5% equity ($750 million minimum to be shared with all (DAL and NWA)
pilots. The sharing would probably be done in the same way as our last
equity. 3 different tranches.

....7% profit sharing using the "Delta" model, which is reported to be a
better (higher payout) model than the one we have at NWA.

....A huge increase in Defined Contribution. 11% DC growing to 14% DC.

....The total number of 51-76 seat aircraft would be capped at 255. The
current number of that size aircraft already operating at NWA and DAL is
reported to be around 240, so the 76 seat deliveries are just about
finished. This is a very favorable change to our scope language.

....Remove the 90-110 seat pay rates from the contract. The effect is
that

the "DC9 replacement aircraft" would come online as a "new" type, and we
could negotiate a brand new (higher) pay rate.

.....NWA earned sick leave is "grandfathered" in the deal. We do not
lose
any sick pay. Future sick will use the DAL model.

....We retain "BSTG" (Bid Schedule Trip Guarantee).

....Per diem increases

....No changes to bases

..... access to more widebodies

..... access to better bases

.....better management

.....more trips to Europe

This using a better contract theory to sort out a seniority list is BS. The two airlines contracts have been seesawing back and forth for the last 30 years due to ALPA's "pattern bargaining " method. To think that a difference in contracts at this point in time is a reason to rush seniority agreements is foolish.

 

[Fly4hire]

Contracts are negotiable and changeable with economic or business cycles. This great package is temporary.

Everyone lost big $$ in Ch11. No one lost a seniority number. Seniority is forever.

Any contractual gains can be erased in a down cycle, and we'll be left with nothing but a number and what it lets us hold.

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?

In a sign of growing trouble for a proposed merger deal with Northwest Airlines Corp., top executives of Delta Air Lines Inc. Tuesday afternoon issued an internal memo saying that no "potential transaction meets all our principles."

Summarizing the airline's priorities in any merger, including seniority protection for all its employees and keeping the airline headquartered in Atlanta, the memo said the airline will continue to focus on its "stand-alone plan" until all "these conditions are met."

Signed by Richard Anderson, Delta's chief executive, and Ed Bastian, the airline's president and chief financial officer, the memo follows a recent impasse in discussions between Delta pilots and their counterparts at Northwest.

A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

 

[filejw]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?



A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

 

[FDJ2]

um yeah, how's that seniority thing work? care to comment?

Yknot

What I am hearing is that DALPA proposed relative position. No one would be more than +/- 0.5% off their current position.

The NWA merger committee approached this with more of a traditional mindset and wants to move as many NWA pilots to the top of the list as possible and would prefer turning over the fate of the NWA pilots to an arbitrator, with resultant loss of all contractual gains and equity stake up front, than taking ownership of an agreement. It allows them to blame the arbitrator.

It's a risky play given the fact that DAL has significantly more wide bodied paying positions and better paying positions, but its the play they apparently are use to.

Apparently with the exception of the merger committee the other committees worked very well together and were able to accomplish quite a bit in a very short time. Special kudos to the negotiating committees.

 

[FDJ2]

Originally posted on the NWA ALPA web board by someone with little to no credibility and a well known personal agenda. Nothing to see here. Move on.

I think he is more accurate than you give him credit for.

 

[FDJ2]

Hmmm.

Are the details correct, or not?

Post the "real" details...and we'll compare them. Or better yet, call your reps and ask them to confirm/deny.

I did.

The answer will surprise you.

Excellent advice.

 

[~~~^~~~]

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

Have you actually seen the numbers? They were not impressive (although anything helps of course). Three years into the retirements Delta's start and ultimately Delta retires more pilots.

You have to also balance the opportunities. Retirements are a small part of the overall picture.

My "Fair Plan" posted elsewhere would have allowed NWA pilots to keep their retirements in house (along with their aircraft).

 

[FDJ2]

DOH v/s Relative Seniority? Either is windfall for NWA when you consider QOL, Pay, Fleet Mix....

The NWA guys need to consider that while they are having "hallway sex" the opportunity to get something out of this deal is evaporating. The cost of being intransigent is irrelevance. The Delta MEC got a seat at the table & equity. If the merger makes enough sense it will be back, but next time ALPA will not have a seat at the table. There is a difference.

Bingo!

 

[Fly4hire]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

A ratio that does not account for our attrition has my ratio sliding year after year as a DAL pilots increases.

Account for our attrition in the future years so as to preserve that ratio +/- a few points and we probably have a deal.

If I start at the 50% percentile, but then end up at 30% five years from now while my DAL counterpart moves up to 70% how is my seniority protected against future downturns?

Right, I become a DAL seniority *itch.

 

[FDJ2]

Everyone lost big $$ in Ch11. No one lost a seniority number. Seniority is forever.

Do you really want to take this to arbitration?

Do you really think that an airline that pays less accross the board, has many more smaller gauge aircraft, many aircraft ready to retire and significantly fewer wide bodied paying positions, will do better than relative seniority infront of an arbitrator?

 

[filejw]

Arbitration, you bet. We have been thru 3 of them plus two other merger negotiations and like the prospects. The the US / America West thing was way different than this.

 

[FDJ2]

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

There are no significant retirements for the next five years, that's an eternity in this industry, there are no significant aircraft orders with scheduled delivery dates on the books at NWA in that period of time, there is no opportunity to even begin contract negotiations at NWA for four more years and no realistic expectation that a new contract will be negotiated in less than 5 years. Retirement numbers smooth out over time, there are only a few years in which there are more NWA retirements than DAL retirements, there after there are more DAL retirements.

There could be a merger without an SLI agreement and without any contractual gains or equity up front. The result would be an arbitrated decision.

Do you want to ask a AAA pilot how much an arbitrator valued retirement numbers 5 years out?

In an arbitration DAL pilots bring signiicantly more wide bodied premium flying, better pay acros the board, 40 scheduled mainline deliveries in the next 2 years, unlike NWAs scheduled aircraft retirements, with no replacement orders. Oh, but you do bring a handfull of years where you have more pilot retirements beginning 5 years from now, a bump that disappears after only a few years.

Do you honestly believe if management decides to go ahead without us that an arbitrator will give you better than relative seniority? The more likely outcome would be less than relative seniority for NWA pilots given the latest arbitrated interpretation of ALPA's merger policy and DAL significantly larger wide bodied fleet.

 

[FDJ2]

Arbitration, you bet. We have been thru 3 of them plus two other merger negotiations and like the prospects. The the US / America West thing was way different than this.

Yes the difference in retirements and average length of service was significantly more at AAA/AWA and it still carried no weight in arbitration. Now the number of wide bodied aircraft, that did carry weight.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If I start at the 50% percentile, but then end up at 30% five years from now while my DAL counterpart moves up to 70% how is my seniority protected against future downturns?

Right, I become a DAL seniority *itch.

I'm not sure I understand. Just for example; If 50% of the NWA list is currently 2600 and 50% of the Delta list is 3500 then the new numbers for you and your Delta co part are likely right at 5100 and 5101 on a list of say 12,200. Right?

It seems like growth and retirements would effect both pilots the same....

Is Delta's growth the problem? Growth is a good thing and Delta's hiring 500 pilots this year. Those pilots would be junior to you if this deal were done.

In my previous career, I used to both argue cases and serve on two industry arbitration boards. Based on what little bit I know about this merger, arbitration is a bad choice for the NWA pilots. The Delta pilots have been very rational and responsible realizing that a offer which slightly conceeds their position is better than the uncertainty of the alternative.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, ALPA National does. This deal would have re-set the bar as other legacy pilots are entering negotiations to restore concessions. The actions of the NWA MEC could hurt UAL and even the APA.