Northwest Pilots Stand to Gain Alot....

[filejw]

From another message board:


Unofficial" contract details from a normally reliable source.

....An immediate raise to the 'Delta' rates (8% to 14% increase
depending on

aircraft and seat).

....A 4 year deal with raises of 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4%.

....5% equity ($750 million minimum to be shared with all (DAL and NWA)
pilots. The sharing would probably be done in the same way as our last
equity. 3 different tranches.

....7% profit sharing using the "Delta" model, which is reported to be a
better (higher payout) model than the one we have at NWA.

....A huge increase in Defined Contribution. 11% DC growing to 14% DC.

....The total number of 51-76 seat aircraft would be capped at 255. The
current number of that size aircraft already operating at NWA and DAL is
reported to be around 240, so the 76 seat deliveries are just about
finished. This is a very favorable change to our scope language.

....Remove the 90-110 seat pay rates from the contract. The effect is
that

the "DC9 replacement aircraft" would come online as a "new" type, and we
could negotiate a brand new (higher) pay rate.

.....NWA earned sick leave is "grandfathered" in the deal. We do not
lose
any sick pay. Future sick will use the DAL model.

....We retain "BSTG" (Bid Schedule Trip Guarantee).

....Per diem increases

....No changes to bases

..... access to more widebodies

..... access to better bases

.....better management

.....more trips to Europe

This using a better contract theory to sort out a seniority list is BS. The two airlines contracts have been seesawing back and forth for the last 30 years due to ALPA's "pattern bargaining " method. To think that a difference in contracts at this point in time is a reason to rush seniority agreements is foolish.

 

[Fly4hire]

Contracts are negotiable and changeable with economic or business cycles. This great package is temporary.

Everyone lost big $$ in Ch11. No one lost a seniority number. Seniority is forever.

Any contractual gains can be erased in a down cycle, and we'll be left with nothing but a number and what it lets us hold.

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?

In a sign of growing trouble for a proposed merger deal with Northwest Airlines Corp., top executives of Delta Air Lines Inc. Tuesday afternoon issued an internal memo saying that no "potential transaction meets all our principles."

Summarizing the airline's priorities in any merger, including seniority protection for all its employees and keeping the airline headquartered in Atlanta, the memo said the airline will continue to focus on its "stand-alone plan" until all "these conditions are met."

Signed by Richard Anderson, Delta's chief executive, and Ed Bastian, the airline's president and chief financial officer, the memo follows a recent impasse in discussions between Delta pilots and their counterparts at Northwest.

A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

 

[filejw]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?



A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

 

[FDJ2]

um yeah, how's that seniority thing work? care to comment?

Yknot

What I am hearing is that DALPA proposed relative position. No one would be more than +/- 0.5% off their current position.

The NWA merger committee approached this with more of a traditional mindset and wants to move as many NWA pilots to the top of the list as possible and would prefer turning over the fate of the NWA pilots to an arbitrator, with resultant loss of all contractual gains and equity stake up front, than taking ownership of an agreement. It allows them to blame the arbitrator.

It's a risky play given the fact that DAL has significantly more wide bodied paying positions and better paying positions, but its the play they apparently are use to.

Apparently with the exception of the merger committee the other committees worked very well together and were able to accomplish quite a bit in a very short time. Special kudos to the negotiating committees.

 

[FDJ2]

Originally posted on the NWA ALPA web board by someone with little to no credibility and a well known personal agenda. Nothing to see here. Move on.

I think he is more accurate than you give him credit for.

 

[FDJ2]

Hmmm.

Are the details correct, or not?

Post the "real" details...and we'll compare them. Or better yet, call your reps and ask them to confirm/deny.

I did.

The answer will surprise you.

Excellent advice.

 

[~~~^~~~]

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

Have you actually seen the numbers? They were not impressive (although anything helps of course). Three years into the retirements Delta's start and ultimately Delta retires more pilots.

You have to also balance the opportunities. Retirements are a small part of the overall picture.

My "Fair Plan" posted elsewhere would have allowed NWA pilots to keep their retirements in house (along with their aircraft).

 

[FDJ2]

DOH v/s Relative Seniority? Either is windfall for NWA when you consider QOL, Pay, Fleet Mix....

The NWA guys need to consider that while they are having "hallway sex" the opportunity to get something out of this deal is evaporating. The cost of being intransigent is irrelevance. The Delta MEC got a seat at the table & equity. If the merger makes enough sense it will be back, but next time ALPA will not have a seat at the table. There is a difference.

Bingo!

 

[Fly4hire]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

A ratio that does not account for our attrition has my ratio sliding year after year as a DAL pilots increases.

Account for our attrition in the future years so as to preserve that ratio +/- a few points and we probably have a deal.

If I start at the 50% percentile, but then end up at 30% five years from now while my DAL counterpart moves up to 70% how is my seniority protected against future downturns?

Right, I become a DAL seniority *itch.

 

[FDJ2]

Everyone lost big $$ in Ch11. No one lost a seniority number. Seniority is forever.

Do you really want to take this to arbitration?

Do you really think that an airline that pays less accross the board, has many more smaller gauge aircraft, many aircraft ready to retire and significantly fewer wide bodied paying positions, will do better than relative seniority infront of an arbitrator?

 

[filejw]

Arbitration, you bet. We have been thru 3 of them plus two other merger negotiations and like the prospects. The the US / America West thing was way different than this.

 

[FDJ2]

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

There are no significant retirements for the next five years, that's an eternity in this industry, there are no significant aircraft orders with scheduled delivery dates on the books at NWA in that period of time, there is no opportunity to even begin contract negotiations at NWA for four more years and no realistic expectation that a new contract will be negotiated in less than 5 years. Retirement numbers smooth out over time, there are only a few years in which there are more NWA retirements than DAL retirements, there after there are more DAL retirements.

There could be a merger without an SLI agreement and without any contractual gains or equity up front. The result would be an arbitrated decision.

Do you want to ask a AAA pilot how much an arbitrator valued retirement numbers 5 years out?

In an arbitration DAL pilots bring signiicantly more wide bodied premium flying, better pay acros the board, 40 scheduled mainline deliveries in the next 2 years, unlike NWAs scheduled aircraft retirements, with no replacement orders. Oh, but you do bring a handfull of years where you have more pilot retirements beginning 5 years from now, a bump that disappears after only a few years.

Do you honestly believe if management decides to go ahead without us that an arbitrator will give you better than relative seniority? The more likely outcome would be less than relative seniority for NWA pilots given the latest arbitrated interpretation of ALPA's merger policy and DAL significantly larger wide bodied fleet.

 

[FDJ2]

Arbitration, you bet. We have been thru 3 of them plus two other merger negotiations and like the prospects. The the US / America West thing was way different than this.

Yes the difference in retirements and average length of service was significantly more at AAA/AWA and it still carried no weight in arbitration. Now the number of wide bodied aircraft, that did carry weight.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If I start at the 50% percentile, but then end up at 30% five years from now while my DAL counterpart moves up to 70% how is my seniority protected against future downturns?

Right, I become a DAL seniority *itch.

I'm not sure I understand. Just for example; If 50% of the NWA list is currently 2600 and 50% of the Delta list is 3500 then the new numbers for you and your Delta co part are likely right at 5100 and 5101 on a list of say 12,200. Right?

It seems like growth and retirements would effect both pilots the same....

Is Delta's growth the problem? Growth is a good thing and Delta's hiring 500 pilots this year. Those pilots would be junior to you if this deal were done.

In my previous career, I used to both argue cases and serve on two industry arbitration boards. Based on what little bit I know about this merger, arbitration is a bad choice for the NWA pilots. The Delta pilots have been very rational and responsible realizing that a offer which slightly conceeds their position is better than the uncertainty of the alternative.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, ALPA National does. This deal would have re-set the bar as other legacy pilots are entering negotiations to restore concessions. The actions of the NWA MEC could hurt UAL and even the APA.

 

[LandGreen]

can anyone please explain what tiny morsel NW brings to the bargaining table that would improve a DL pilots QOL today?

NWA gets: pay, retirement, huge number of higher paying seats, work rules, better bases, etc...

i don't know...maybe NW is claiming they have better looking FA's as a SLI negotiating offer!

 

[~~~^~~~]

can anyone please explain what tiny morsel NW brings to the bargaining table that would improve a DL pilots QOL today?

...maybe NW is claiming they have better looking FA's as a SLI negotiating offer!

Medium term, NWA (& AirFrance/KLM) bring a better network & capitol to fund future expansion. Their fleet is paid for and can be renewed without the costs of parking indebted assets.

Their bits and our bits fit together and create the World's Largest Airline. A Carrier that with our partners is an opportunity to truly span the World.

Who knows if the synergies are worth what got put on the table, you have to assume someone with the facts figured it out and determined it is worth it.

 

[JAM-BRO]

WOW DUDE....

What does Delta have? A whopping 8 777s. 8 orders, wow that is huge... Give me a break...

If we can't make up the difference before all of that debt comes due, maybe we will get help from our friend in FRANCE. They seem willing to help us now, I don't see why they wouldn't in the future. Lufthansa has done it for Jetblue (for reasons that are still unclear to me), so in exchange for some equity they could help us if we are ever in a pinch.

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard. Can anyone show me an order for narrowbodies, other than saying they (NWA) are waiting for a new 787-like 737NG?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

WOW DUDE....

What does Delta have? A whopping 8 777s. 8 orders, wow that is huge... Give me a break...

I guess you missed that we have 21 767-400s (as big or bigger than NWA A330s), 60 something 767-300ERs, twice as many 757s, NEW 737s coming out of the ying yang, and MD88/90s that are spring chickens compared to the aging DC9s that guzzle gas. Yeah, we don't bring a lot. They have how many old 747-200s that keep pointing towards the boneyard via the autopilot? 13. How many 744s? 16---a small number compared to United oir any Pacific Rim carrier. Our 777 fleet number will eclipse the 744 number within the next couple of years, and the 787 may not even arrive in the next few thanks to numerous Boeing delays.


Give you a break? You need one. Tell me if you need a heading for the couch....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

A NWA pilot on another thread wrote:

Eleven yrs at NWA and I cant hold any widebody reserve positon as a F/O.

Jun '08 pilot position awards. Most junior reserve.

ANC 747 F/O 11/96
SEA 330 F/O 05/96
MSP 474 F/O 11/96

 

[DTW320]

A NWA pilot on another thread wrote:

He's incorrect. He could have held DTW 330 at 11 years.
Here's some more that you left out:

DTW 744FO = Jan97 Hire
DTW 330FO = March97
MSP 330FO = Sep96

 

[DTW320]

I guess you missed that we have 21 767-400s (as big or bigger than NWA A330s), 60 something 767-300ERs, twice as many 757s, NEW 737s coming out of the ying yang, and MD88/90s that are spring chickens compared to the aging DC9s that guzzle gas. Yeah, we don't bring a lot. They have how many old 747-200s that keep pointing towards the boneyard via the autopilot? 13. How many 744s? 16---a small number compared to United oir any Pacific Rim carrier. Our 777 fleet number will eclipse the 744 number within the next couple of years, and the 787 may not even arrive in the next few thanks to numerous Boeing delays.


Give you a break? You need one. Tell me if you need a heading for the couch....


Bye Bye--General Lee

So GL, why does DL want to merge with NWA? Why not UAL? How would that SLI work?

FOCUS: Someone at Delta Air Lines that actually matters disagrees with you concerning the desirability of NWA and what they bring to the dance. Maybe something you should consider when you finish measuring your "member"ship in DALPA

 

[Fly4hire]

He's incorrect. He could have held DTW 330 at 11 years.
Here's some more that you left out:

DTW 744FO = Jan97 Hire
DTW 330FO = March97
MSP 330FO = Sep96

DTW DC9CA = Jun98
MSP DC9CA = Mar98

 

[formerdal]

WOW DUDE....

What does Delta have? A whopping 8 777s. 8 orders, wow that is huge... Give me a break...

Delta has 246 airframes which pay 767 pay or greater. Our 757's of which there are 120 pay the same as the 76. Our 777 orders are for 8 and about 21 options I believe. You guys are giving that up as well, I believe your 75's pay narrowbody pay do they not.

NW has 63 aircraft which pay widebody pay. Coming to Delta's contract automatically adds your 71 757's to that list....hence more widebody paying aircraft for everyone. Not to mention all the other improvements.

I am a Sep 2000 hire and can hold any widebody FO in the system and about 20 numbers from MD88 Capt in NY...FYI

 

[DTW320]

Delta has 246 airframes which pay 767 pay or greater. Our 757's of which there are 120 pay the same as the 76. Our 777 orders are for 8 and about 21 options I believe. You guys are giving that up as well, I believe your 75's pay narrowbody pay do they not.

NW has 63 aircraft which pay widebody pay. Coming to Delta's contract automatically adds your 71 757's to that list....hence more widebody paying aircraft for everyone. Not to mention all the other improvements.

I don't disagree with you one bit. However, the question that really matters is do we sell our seniority soul to get that? I don't think so. Every bit of the financial stuff is one terror attack, or possibly, one $150 barrel of oil away from vanishing. The SLI would go on for the rest of a career though.

 

[FDJ2]

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, ALPA National does.

ALPA's structure does not give national much say in the matter. This is a pilot to pilot issue and will be resolved that way.

There is no cram down in negotiated agreements. Cram downs come from binding arbitration.

Currently the pilots at both airlines have an option, an option that is unprecedented, the option to participate upfront in a merger.

A few years back a captain told me that in this industry there are three types of pilots, those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who say "what happened."

I would prefer to make things happen, then allow others to determine our fate without any meaningful input on our part.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't disagree with you one bit. However, the question that really matters is do we sell our seniority soul to get that?

How are you selling your seniority if you end up at the same relative place post merger that you had pre merger?

Particularly when you reap higher pay raises than the next guy and gain access to twice as much premium flying than you brought to the table.

 

[formerdal]

I don't disagree with you one bit. However, the question that really matters is do we sell our seniority soul to get that? I don't think so. Every bit of the financial stuff is one terror attack, or possibly, one $150 barrel of oil away from vanishing. The SLI would go on for the rest of a career though.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Your seniority at your current position will get you alot more up front with this merger. As in being able to hold higher paying categories at higher rates of pay sooner. While you may or may not have the equipment 10 to 15 yrs down the road to use that super seniority your sitting around waiting for.

I personally would rather have more up front-NOW, because as you said who knows what the future holds. I certainly understand your position though.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ2:

Very, very, true. We have an opportunity that requires new thinking. I was just hinking out loud that the UAL, Continental and even the APA would be bothered by pilots leaving pay restoration on the table just as they start negotiating.

The NWA guys default position is arbitration, even when handed a victory without fighting. What can you do but walk away? Anderson has surely seen all this before and dare I say, that D ALPA and Management are together on this.

Arbitration would likely have a better SLI result for the DAL pilots, but if it doesn't come with all the goodies currently on the table, it would be a loss.

 

[Occam's Razor]

This I can say for sure: I really like pancakes!

Everything else is negotiable.