Northwest Pilots Stand to Gain Alot....

[120% Torque]

From another message board:


Unofficial" contract details from a normally reliable source.

....An immediate raise to the 'Delta' rates (8% to 14% increase
depending on

aircraft and seat).

....A 4 year deal with raises of 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4%.

....5% equity ($750 million minimum to be shared with all (DAL and NWA)
pilots. The sharing would probably be done in the same way as our last
equity. 3 different tranches.

....7% profit sharing using the "Delta" model, which is reported to be a
better (higher payout) model than the one we have at NWA.

....A huge increase in Defined Contribution. 11% DC growing to 14% DC.

....The total number of 51-76 seat aircraft would be capped at 255. The
current number of that size aircraft already operating at NWA and DAL is
reported to be around 240, so the 76 seat deliveries are just about
finished. This is a very favorable change to our scope language.

....Remove the 90-110 seat pay rates from the contract. The effect is
that

the "DC9 replacement aircraft" would come online as a "new" type, and we
could negotiate a brand new (higher) pay rate.

.....NWA earned sick leave is "grandfathered" in the deal. We do not
lose
any sick pay. Future sick will use the DAL model.

....We retain "BSTG" (Bid Schedule Trip Guarantee).

....Per diem increases

....No changes to bases

..... access to more widebodies

..... access to better bases

.....better management

.....more trips to Europe

 

[Yknot]

um yeah, how's that seniority thing work? care to comment?

Yknot

 

[Tanker Clown]

I have a question...where are the savings of the merger if your labor costs edge up like this? I realize that some staff type jobs are eliminated, but it sounds like a quick spike in labor.

Don't get me wrong...the labor costs need to go up...but I don't really see the benifits of the mergers as far as costs are concerned. The reduction in capacity (furloughs?) will help drive up ticket prices, but that will only last until Air Tran and SWA fill in the void with cheaper tickets.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

From another message board:


Unofficial" contract details from a normally reliable source.

....An immediate raise to the 'Delta' rates (8% to 14% increase
depending on

aircraft and seat).

....A 4 year deal with raises of 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4%.

....5% equity ($750 million minimum to be shared with all (DAL and NWA)
pilots. The sharing would probably be done in the same way as our last
equity. 3 different tranches.

....7% profit sharing using the "Delta" model, which is reported to be a
better (higher payout) model than the one we have at NWA.

....A huge increase in Defined Contribution. 11% DC growing to 14% DC.

....The total number of 51-76 seat aircraft would be capped at 255. The
current number of that size aircraft already operating at NWA and DAL is
reported to be around 240, so the 76 seat deliveries are just about
finished. This is a very favorable change to our scope language.

....Remove the 90-110 seat pay rates from the contract. The effect is
that

the "DC9 replacement aircraft" would come online as a "new" type, and we
could negotiate a brand new (higher) pay rate.

.....NWA earned sick leave is "grandfathered" in the deal. We do not
lose
any sick pay. Future sick will use the DAL model.

....We retain "BSTG" (Bid Schedule Trip Guarantee).

....Per diem increases

....No changes to bases

..... access to more widebodies

..... access to better bases

.....better management

.....more trips to Europe

Originally posted on the NWA ALPA web board by someone with little to no credibility and a well known personal agenda. Nothing to see here. Move on.

 

[General Lee]

The fact is that if we Deltoids don't get fair and relative position, NWA and Delta will never happen. They will not get a double digit pay raise until they finish negotiating their next contract in 2011 (is that right?), they will not fix their shabby work rules, they will not get to thaw out at a warmer base (unless Memphis based), and they will keep their man Steenland for a lot longer. Let's see how they roll the dice. 3 or 4 negotiators will determine on their side if it is all worth it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

Originally posted on the NWA ALPA web board by someone with little to no credibility and a well known personal agenda. Nothing to see here. Move on.

Hmmm.

Are the details correct, or not?

Post the "real" details...and we'll compare them. Or better yet, call your reps and ask them to confirm/deny.

I did.

The answer will surprise you.

 

[clippyrip]

Hmmm.

Are the details correct, or not?

Post the "real" details...and we'll compare them. Or better yet, call your reps and ask them to confirm/deny.

I did.

The answer will surprise you.

In a good way? Let us in on what you know...

 

[jkkdca]

These are the details that we are hearing at DAL from more than one DALPA rep. So I consider these pretty accurate.

As far as the SLI, no one from either company would change relative position more than 1-2% from where they are now with the proposed DALPA plan. Again from the reps.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

From what I am hearing the numbers are close.

 

[Superpilot92]

These are the details that we are hearing at DAL from more than one DALPA rep. So I consider these pretty accurate.

As far as the SLI, no one from either company would change relative position more than 1-2% from where they are now with the proposed DALPA plan. Again from the reps.

If true then whats the hang up?

 

[Tanker Clown]

If true then whats the hang up?

The same thing that happened at America West/US Air. Two different sets of egos. Hey, the General often reminds us that there were no furloughs with that merger and the overlap wasn't significant....so what is the hang up there. Egos.

 

[Schwanker]

If true then whats the hang up?

Ummm, maybe some elite pilot group believes they should gain a windfall from a SLI which is completely lopsided.

Don't worry, NWA's contract will dramatically improve just before DAL's $4B debt comes due. I wonder if they'll be looking for pilot concessions to finance that deal. NWA will be just fine.

 

[clippyrip]

I hope we get over ourselves by the time we have to fly together. Go team!

Let me get a cheer from the back section for the double breasted sharkskin leather pilot hat. HA HA

 

[~~~^~~~]

If true then whats the hang up?

DOH v/s Relative Seniority? Either is windfall for NWA when you consider QOL, Pay, Fleet Mix....

The NWA guys need to consider that while they are having "hallway sex" the opportunity to get something out of this deal is evaporating. The cost of being intransigent is irrelevance. The Delta MEC got a seat at the table & equity. If the merger makes enough sense it will be back, but next time ALPA will not have a seat at the table. There is a difference.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I think the double breasted coat and hat really look snazzy...but I'd be all for the new combined uniform to be something of the "hawaiian shirt, shorts, and sandals" variety.

 

[737 Pylt]

Ummm, maybe some elite pilot group believes they should gain a windfall from a SLI which is completely lopsided.

Exactly....You NWA guys think you have some sort of entitlement! Sorry, we don't need it or your urealistic demands!

Don't worry, NWA's contract will dramatically improve just before DAL's $4B debt comes due. I wonder if they'll be looking for pilot concessions to finance that deal. NWA will be just fine.

Or maybe NWA's debt might come in and the senior guys can sell you junior guys out again to keep their pensions!
It works both ways!

737

 

[Tanker Clown]

Exactly....You NWA guys think you have some sort of entitlement! Sorry, we don't need it or your urealistic demands!


Or maybe NWA's debt might come in and the senior guys can sell you junior guys out again to keep their pensions!
It works both ways!

737

Ahhhh. Isn't that cute. You guys are fighting over each others debts now? I guess this isn't one of those times where you want yours to be the biggest.

 

[General Lee]

Ummm, maybe some elite pilot group believes they should gain a windfall from a SLI which is completely lopsided.

Don't worry, NWA's contract will dramatically improve just before DAL's $4B debt comes due. I wonder if they'll be looking for pilot concessions to finance that deal. NWA will be just fine.

If we can't make up the difference before all of that debt comes due, maybe we will get help from our friend in FRANCE. They seem willing to help us now, I don't see why they wouldn't in the future. Lufthansa has done it for Jetblue (for reasons that are still unclear to me), so in exchange for some equity they could help us if we are ever in a pinch.

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard. Can anyone show me an order for narrowbodies, other than saying they (NWA) are waiting for a new 787-like 737NG?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[motch]

Guess it comes down to every pilot group thinking they can weather the future on their own. Only time will tell.

You would think that ALPA carriers would see the light that 2 or 3 mega airlines stand a better chance than 5 or 6 legacy airlines in the future.

Mergers that don't happen now will probably result in bankruptcies in the future (again for some airlines!). So be it.
We'll see how financially sound everyone is again in 3 to 5 years.

Personally, I'm in no rush to merge with the airline that we are looking at. But if, in 3 to 5 years we "acquire" them, I will definitely expect them to be placed in the appropriate position on a seniority list.

 

[motch]

Oh.. and I think Lufthansa's influx in cash towards JB is purely for open skies. Now they will have access to cities where JB flies into to go directly from Germany *Der Vaterland* to more cities in the US using JB gates and ground personel. Just my opinion.

As far as JB feeding Lufty and vice a versa... don't see it happening. No First Class on JB which is something Lufty would require. And then there's the whole Star Alliance thing. Not sure how UAL will agree to losing the feed from Lufty!

 

[~~~^~~~]

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard.

Bye Bye--General Lee

"displacements aren't a concern, we have enough 777's coming to absorb their DC9 pilots."

 

[General Lee]

"displacements aren't a concern, we have enough 777's coming to absorb their DC9 pilots."

Remember, those MD90s are out there too. Seriously, they have looked into it, and we are looking to "gobble" them up. That was the quote.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

If we can't make up the difference before all of that debt comes due, maybe we will get help from our friend in FRANCE. They seem willing to help us now, I don't see why they wouldn't in the future. Lufthansa has done it for Jetblue (for reasons that are still unclear to me), so in exchange for some equity they could help us if we are ever in a pinch.

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard. Can anyone show me an order for narrowbodies, other than saying they (NWA) are waiting for a new 787-like 737NG?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey GL i when did you take the position of NWA fleet analyst? Thanks for all of your "Solid" info!!

 

[General Lee]

Hey GL i when did you take the position of NWA fleet analyst? Thanks for all of your "Solid" info!!

Well there newbie, can you give me some "solid" numbers? If it were up to OUR management in ATL, it appears like they would dump the DC9s as soon as they could (with MD90s maybe) as long as there was a viable replacement. Your management in MSP seems to be waiting for the next best thing from Boeing that hasn't even been designed yet. Which sounds more plausible? Sounds fishy---like a Northern from Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Well there newbie, can you give me some "solid" numbers? If it were up to OUR management in ATL, it appears like they would dump the DC9s as soon as they could (with MD90s maybe) as long as there was a viable replacement. Your management in MSP seems to be waiting for the next best thing from Boeing that hasn't even been designed yet. Which sounds more plausible? Sounds fishy---like a Northern from Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Newbie yes but i do ask lots of questions to those whom have more info then your newspaper articles.

Currently there are no plans on getting rid of the 68 DC9s just yet. They havent found a replacement yet. It was mentioned that the only real timeline they have in regards to the -9 is the airspace constraints, aka rvsm, not to mention more and more VORs are being decommissioned. They could just spend the money and update the -9 or they will find a replacement, neither you nor i know "exactly" what will happen regardless of me being a FNG and you being a FOG

 

[Noserider76]

The info at the beginning of the post pretty much matches what I've heard. The PID leaves each pilot with a relative position no more than .5% from current position in acordance with ALPA merger policy. Seems like a large concession on the part of DL since NW gets access to many more high paying positions they don't currently have. No penalties for possible fleet retirements. The tradeoff there is NW has more near-term retirements. The entire agreement would be subject to Memrat. All or nothing.

It seems as though the merger committee on one side thought this out thoroughly and avoided a windfall for either side on the PID. The contract side, on the other, hand is a huge windfall for the NW guys.

Seems like one committee wanted a plan that was as fair as possible to both sides and followed ALPA merger policy, in order for both sides to take advantage of a unique situation. The other group thought they were negotiating with management.

 

[Tantrum]

Am I the only one that thinks the equity stake in the company should be equally distributed to the pilots and not distributed at higher levels to senior pilots and lower amounts to junior pilots? I guess my thought process is that the equity portion is our stake in the long term viability of our company. A senior pilot that will be retiring soon (like some NWA pilots that may retire at age 60 with a pension) has a lot less to lose over the long term if this merger goes to crap than a junior pilot. Yet I'm hearing that the senior pilots would be given the bigger chunks. Seems kind of odd to me that we always bitch that management is always trying to get their share of the money and run when this is exactly what this sounds like the senior pilots will be doing.

I know at this point everything is still rumor, but I will be disappointed if I find out the senior pilots have thrown the junior pilots under the bus. We all share a risk in this merger, so let everyone share the same reward.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tantrum - Actually the junior pilots are effected more by SLI. I'd be surprised if any pay out was not evenly distributed.

 

[anewunion]

The deal is dead for now. Northwest must get past it's current seniority issues first.

 

[the turtle]

senior pilots=bigger chunks

that's why they're senior