Northwest Pilots Stand to Gain Alot....

[~~~^~~~]

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard.

Bye Bye--General Lee

"displacements aren't a concern, we have enough 777's coming to absorb their DC9 pilots."

 

[General Lee]

"displacements aren't a concern, we have enough 777's coming to absorb their DC9 pilots."

Remember, those MD90s are out there too. Seriously, they have looked into it, and we are looking to "gobble" them up. That was the quote.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

If we can't make up the difference before all of that debt comes due, maybe we will get help from our friend in FRANCE. They seem willing to help us now, I don't see why they wouldn't in the future. Lufthansa has done it for Jetblue (for reasons that are still unclear to me), so in exchange for some equity they could help us if we are ever in a pinch.

We at Delta have already been through the phase of parking old planes and shuffling people around. That will happen again at NWA, thanks to no major replacement orders for the cargo birds or the narrow body aircraft. It is great that you have 18 firm orders for the 787s, and 50 options. That's all I know that you have coming to you. Can you confirm anything on the domestic side other than E175s for Compass? Anyone? If not, I think you will see DC9s heading for the boneyard. Can anyone show me an order for narrowbodies, other than saying they (NWA) are waiting for a new 787-like 737NG?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey GL i when did you take the position of NWA fleet analyst? Thanks for all of your "Solid" info!!

 

[General Lee]

Hey GL i when did you take the position of NWA fleet analyst? Thanks for all of your "Solid" info!!

Well there newbie, can you give me some "solid" numbers? If it were up to OUR management in ATL, it appears like they would dump the DC9s as soon as they could (with MD90s maybe) as long as there was a viable replacement. Your management in MSP seems to be waiting for the next best thing from Boeing that hasn't even been designed yet. Which sounds more plausible? Sounds fishy---like a Northern from Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Well there newbie, can you give me some "solid" numbers? If it were up to OUR management in ATL, it appears like they would dump the DC9s as soon as they could (with MD90s maybe) as long as there was a viable replacement. Your management in MSP seems to be waiting for the next best thing from Boeing that hasn't even been designed yet. Which sounds more plausible? Sounds fishy---like a Northern from Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Newbie yes but i do ask lots of questions to those whom have more info then your newspaper articles.

Currently there are no plans on getting rid of the 68 DC9s just yet. They havent found a replacement yet. It was mentioned that the only real timeline they have in regards to the -9 is the airspace constraints, aka rvsm, not to mention more and more VORs are being decommissioned. They could just spend the money and update the -9 or they will find a replacement, neither you nor i know "exactly" what will happen regardless of me being a FNG and you being a FOG

 

[Noserider76]

The info at the beginning of the post pretty much matches what I've heard. The PID leaves each pilot with a relative position no more than .5% from current position in acordance with ALPA merger policy. Seems like a large concession on the part of DL since NW gets access to many more high paying positions they don't currently have. No penalties for possible fleet retirements. The tradeoff there is NW has more near-term retirements. The entire agreement would be subject to Memrat. All or nothing.

It seems as though the merger committee on one side thought this out thoroughly and avoided a windfall for either side on the PID. The contract side, on the other, hand is a huge windfall for the NW guys.

Seems like one committee wanted a plan that was as fair as possible to both sides and followed ALPA merger policy, in order for both sides to take advantage of a unique situation. The other group thought they were negotiating with management.

 

[Tantrum]

Am I the only one that thinks the equity stake in the company should be equally distributed to the pilots and not distributed at higher levels to senior pilots and lower amounts to junior pilots? I guess my thought process is that the equity portion is our stake in the long term viability of our company. A senior pilot that will be retiring soon (like some NWA pilots that may retire at age 60 with a pension) has a lot less to lose over the long term if this merger goes to crap than a junior pilot. Yet I'm hearing that the senior pilots would be given the bigger chunks. Seems kind of odd to me that we always bitch that management is always trying to get their share of the money and run when this is exactly what this sounds like the senior pilots will be doing.

I know at this point everything is still rumor, but I will be disappointed if I find out the senior pilots have thrown the junior pilots under the bus. We all share a risk in this merger, so let everyone share the same reward.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tantrum - Actually the junior pilots are effected more by SLI. I'd be surprised if any pay out was not evenly distributed.

 

[anewunion]

The deal is dead for now. Northwest must get past it's current seniority issues first.

 

[the turtle]

senior pilots=bigger chunks

that's why they're senior

 

[filejw]

From another message board:


Unofficial" contract details from a normally reliable source.

....An immediate raise to the 'Delta' rates (8% to 14% increase
depending on

aircraft and seat).

....A 4 year deal with raises of 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4%.

....5% equity ($750 million minimum to be shared with all (DAL and NWA)
pilots. The sharing would probably be done in the same way as our last
equity. 3 different tranches.

....7% profit sharing using the "Delta" model, which is reported to be a
better (higher payout) model than the one we have at NWA.

....A huge increase in Defined Contribution. 11% DC growing to 14% DC.

....The total number of 51-76 seat aircraft would be capped at 255. The
current number of that size aircraft already operating at NWA and DAL is
reported to be around 240, so the 76 seat deliveries are just about
finished. This is a very favorable change to our scope language.

....Remove the 90-110 seat pay rates from the contract. The effect is
that

the "DC9 replacement aircraft" would come online as a "new" type, and we
could negotiate a brand new (higher) pay rate.

.....NWA earned sick leave is "grandfathered" in the deal. We do not
lose
any sick pay. Future sick will use the DAL model.

....We retain "BSTG" (Bid Schedule Trip Guarantee).

....Per diem increases

....No changes to bases

..... access to more widebodies

..... access to better bases

.....better management

.....more trips to Europe

This using a better contract theory to sort out a seniority list is BS. The two airlines contracts have been seesawing back and forth for the last 30 years due to ALPA's "pattern bargaining " method. To think that a difference in contracts at this point in time is a reason to rush seniority agreements is foolish.

 

[Fly4hire]

Contracts are negotiable and changeable with economic or business cycles. This great package is temporary.

Everyone lost big $$ in Ch11. No one lost a seniority number. Seniority is forever.

Any contractual gains can be erased in a down cycle, and we'll be left with nothing but a number and what it lets us hold.

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We will be nothing but DAL's *itches and seniority buffer for the next downturn.

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?

In a sign of growing trouble for a proposed merger deal with Northwest Airlines Corp., top executives of Delta Air Lines Inc. Tuesday afternoon issued an internal memo saying that no "potential transaction meets all our principles."

Summarizing the airline's priorities in any merger, including seniority protection for all its employees and keeping the airline headquartered in Atlanta, the memo said the airline will continue to focus on its "stand-alone plan" until all "these conditions are met."

Signed by Richard Anderson, Delta's chief executive, and Ed Bastian, the airline's president and chief financial officer, the memo follows a recent impasse in discussions between Delta pilots and their counterparts at Northwest.

A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

 

[filejw]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

Have you ever heard an airline management team say and write things like this?



A merger may be back at both of our doors before long. The difference is that next time it will not come with a bonus, a raise and furlough protection. If you want to do things the old fashioned way, expect old fashioned results.

I did not want the merger either, but was impressed with the work one side did to get management and investors to the table - to get labor involved and make them relevant.

UAL's and AA's pilots must hate it that we failed to raise the bar.

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

 

[FDJ2]

um yeah, how's that seniority thing work? care to comment?

Yknot

What I am hearing is that DALPA proposed relative position. No one would be more than +/- 0.5% off their current position.

The NWA merger committee approached this with more of a traditional mindset and wants to move as many NWA pilots to the top of the list as possible and would prefer turning over the fate of the NWA pilots to an arbitrator, with resultant loss of all contractual gains and equity stake up front, than taking ownership of an agreement. It allows them to blame the arbitrator.

It's a risky play given the fact that DAL has significantly more wide bodied paying positions and better paying positions, but its the play they apparently are use to.

Apparently with the exception of the merger committee the other committees worked very well together and were able to accomplish quite a bit in a very short time. Special kudos to the negotiating committees.

 

[FDJ2]

Originally posted on the NWA ALPA web board by someone with little to no credibility and a well known personal agenda. Nothing to see here. Move on.

I think he is more accurate than you give him credit for.

 

[FDJ2]

Hmmm.

Are the details correct, or not?

Post the "real" details...and we'll compare them. Or better yet, call your reps and ask them to confirm/deny.

I did.

The answer will surprise you.

Excellent advice.

 

[~~~^~~~]

But it doesn't give our Jr guys the ability to move up on our (NWA's) retirements as the DAL guys have already done. We really don't need this in the long term so we will not be rushed or give up our right under ALPA's merger policy.

Have you actually seen the numbers? They were not impressive (although anything helps of course). Three years into the retirements Delta's start and ultimately Delta retires more pilots.

You have to also balance the opportunities. Retirements are a small part of the overall picture.

My "Fair Plan" posted elsewhere would have allowed NWA pilots to keep their retirements in house (along with their aircraft).

 

[FDJ2]

DOH v/s Relative Seniority? Either is windfall for NWA when you consider QOL, Pay, Fleet Mix....

The NWA guys need to consider that while they are having "hallway sex" the opportunity to get something out of this deal is evaporating. The cost of being intransigent is irrelevance. The Delta MEC got a seat at the table & equity. If the merger makes enough sense it will be back, but next time ALPA will not have a seat at the table. There is a difference.

Bingo!

 

[Fly4hire]

That's rediculous. A ratio integration gives you exactly the relative seniority you had at the World's largest airline with three times the widebodies, more hiring underneath you and more growth & retirements above you.

A ratio that does not account for our attrition has my ratio sliding year after year as a DAL pilots increases.

Account for our attrition in the future years so as to preserve that ratio +/- a few points and we probably have a deal.

If I start at the 50% percentile, but then end up at 30% five years from now while my DAL counterpart moves up to 70% how is my seniority protected against future downturns?

Right, I become a DAL seniority *itch.