Is this profession in peril?

[Andy]

Ummm.... I believe picketing and going on strike is what brought this profession from basically "bus drivers" but more dangerous in the 30's to what it became in the heyday- a professional career.

Do you think companies just volunteered to pay pilots that much?

So picketing and striking is all it took for pilots to turn this into a professional career? Well then, that should fix everything - let's all go down and picket. That'll get things turned around.
Picketing and striking are tools that should only be used sparingly. To pull them out of the toolbag on a monthly (or even annual) basis, as is happening now, reduces their effect to zero. That's old school.
But you dodged my original statement. When's the last time that you saw doctors or lawyers picket?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yes, it's dead.

Now move along. Nothing to see here...

(sigh)

 

[PAPA FOX!]

I agree with your basic analysis--the statistics indicate a pilot shortage. However, the problem with the theory is that the new-hire pilots are signing on for very low salaries that don't improve much over time. Supply shortages would only raise pilot salary standards if pilots withheld services unless paid at a rate congruent with the job as a "profession" instead of as laborers.

Pilots since the mid-1980s have shown no tendency to withhold services, in fact the opposite. As long as the regional airlines can hire new 250-hour pilots at $18K a year, this won't change. No bona fide "profession" has an entry-level this low on the economic scale.

I agree with that too but don't you think a large number of those will burn out after a few yrs at the regionals? It seems many will not be happy with the pay and QOL and leave the industry long before they have the hours to be competitive for the majors.

 

[PCL_128]

When's the last time that you saw doctors or lawyers picket?

Doctors and lawyers aren't unionized labor. The AMA strictly controls supply in order to hold up their profession. Lawyers are able to individually negotiate their wages because it's easy to quantify the quality of an attorney, something that is impossible for a pilot or doctor.

 

[Flopgut]

We have a bad union. That's 90% of our problem.

 

[CitationUltra]

I agree with that too but don't you think a large number of those will burn out after a few yrs at the regionals? It seems many will not be happy with the pay and QOL and leave the industry long before they have the hours to be competitive for the majors.

I would think that the pay and schedules alone would drive out many. The question then is whether or not they will be replaced others of the same ilk.

I think the central question is the use of the term "profession" and my point is that the characterization of commercial flying as a profession really ended at the point in time when the relentless assault on pilots commenced back in the 1980s. Company management set out to greatly diminish the stature of pilots, individually and as a a class, and they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They managed to eviscerate the pilot's primary union, ALPA, drastically undermined pilot's perceived value and self worth, and at the same time dramatically decreased the overall costs associated with pilots as a labor group.

Airline management views pilots as but another class of labor--not as a professional group, as in, for example, lawyers or doctors. They have used this to undermine pilots with other labor groups within a given company. All of this results in lower values. Add the fact that pilots themselves have gone along with this and failed to stand up for themselves, and you have a situation with rapidly diminishing returns. OR--put another way--exactly what we have seen in terms of the status of pilots since about 1985.

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Company management set out to greatly diminish the stature of pilots, individually and as a a class, and they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They managed to eviscerate the pilot's primary union, ALPA, drastically undermined pilot's perceived value and self worth, and at the same time dramatically decreased the overall costs associated with pilots as a labor group.

And we only have ourselves to blame for that. They could not have accomplished that against a united pilot workforce.

 

[PCL_128]

We have a bad union. That's 90% of our problem.

No, you have an apathetic, uninformed membership. That's 99% of your problem.

 

[CitationUltra]

And we only have ourselves to blame for that. They could not have accomplished that against a united pilot workforce.

It's true. In fairness it must be said that efforts to counteract this were made. However, and without rehashing the history of it here, those efforts ended with a whimper. They were not successful, and that was noted by senior management throughout the industry--they could win a labor dispute with pilots, because there was no solidarity, either among pilots, or between labor organizations. That was the genesis of the situation that pilots are in today.

 

[800Dog]

So picketing and striking is all it took for pilots to turn this into a professional career? Well then, that should fix everything - let's all go down and picket. That'll get things turned around.
Picketing and striking are tools that should only be used sparingly. To pull them out of the toolbag on a monthly (or even annual) basis, as is happening now, reduces their effect to zero. That's old school.
But you dodged my original statement. When's the last time that you saw doctors or lawyers picket?

I believe the last time I saw doctor's strike was about five years ago in Pennsylvania. Could be wrong on the state. They went on strike to protest outrageously high malpractice insurance. Cannot remember the last time my pilot group went on strike. Thats right, we never have. We continue to give and give! I just googled doctors strke america. Not only have doctors struck, they have picketed as well. You were saying?

 

[tomgoodman]

Better odds, smaller prize

We should probably keep in mind that career prospects weren't so hot in the past either. Pay and benefits at majors were fine, if you could get and keep a job there. Regionals hardly existed, so military service was needed to be competitive for an interview, and there were thousands of ex-military applicants. If you got hired, your airline might have been one of the many which no longer exist.

Choosing an airline career has always been a gamble; there used to be larger jackpots but fewer winners.

 

[CitationUltra]

I believe the last time I saw doctor's strike was about five years ago in Pennsylvania. Could be wrong on the state. They went on strike to protest outrageously high malpractice insurance. Cannot remember the last time my pilot group went on strike. Thats right, we never have. We continue to give and give! I just googled doctors strke america. Not only have doctors struck, they have picketed as well. You were saying?

And who are they picketing against? Their clients or patients? The "system"? I must say, I have never witnessed a picket line made up of lawyers or doctors.

There is a major difference, in any case. Doctors and lawyers are essentially self-employed professionals. Pilots, on the other hand, are employees. IN that regard, they are not much different than any other employee. Employers, i.e., airline managements, have exploited that by pitching labor groups within the companies against each other, and at that they have been quite successful.

 

[CitationUltra]

We should probably keep in mind that career prospects weren't so hot in the past either. Pay and benefits at majors were fine, if you could get and keep a job there. Regionals hardly existed, so military service was needed to be competitive for an interview, and there were thousands of ex-military applicants. If you got hired, your airline might have been one of the many which no longer exist.

Choosing an airline career has always been a gamble; there used to be larger jackpots but fewer winners.

Right on all points. The real winners were those whose number in the seniority lottery enabled them to remain employed and never furloughed.

 

[waveflyer]

it's not in peril... how dramatic- i won't even read this thread--

there is an infrastructure alive in this global economy that depends on aviation-= The problem is when will we as pilots choose not to sell each other out- get unified and do something about the decrease in wages?

Like an alcoholic=- when will we reach bottom enough to get off our arse and stand up for ourselves...

Traffic is scheduled to massively increase, VLJ's are comin-- the jobs will be there-
The question is- like at the regionals- will we make these jobs good jobs or bad jobs? To me - it centers on how well senior people at majors look out for and provide leadership for junior guys... Screwing them is what has got us in this mess. When one pilot struggles and is on survival mode-= that affects all of us b/c of what they are now willing to do to stay flying... looking out for the junior and disenfranchised sends so many messages that gain us leverage it's not even funny...

When will we hit bottom? You tell me...

 

[Flopgut]

No, you have an apathetic, uninformed membership. That's 99% of your problem.

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

 

[800Dog]

And who are they picketing against? Their clients or patients? The "system"? I must say, I have never witnessed a picket line made up of lawyers or doctors.

There is a major difference, in any case. Doctors and lawyers are essentially self-employed professionals. Pilots, on the other hand, are employees. IN that regard, they are not much different than any other employee. Employers, i.e., airline managements, have exploited that by pitching labor groups within the companies against each other, and at that they have been quite successful.

No argument here. Just pointing out the guy who seemed to think doctors never picket or strike was wrong.

 

[PCL_128]

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

It must be nice to just stick your head in the sand and pretend that others are responsible for all of your problems. But sadly, it doesn't jive with reality. If the membership wants to know what's wrong with their union, then they need to pull their heads out of the sand and look in a mirror.

 

[CitationUltra]

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

You're probably right, but we've had nearly thirty years to effect a change in leadership and it's never happened.

Why is that?

Is it because those truly qualified and capable do not want the job? Or is it because the wrong people seek these jobs? People who want the job for the wrong reasons? (I've personally seen this phenomenon over and over again.)

 

[Flopgut]

Generational? Cultural? I'm not sure. ALPA used to be better. For instance, Merger policy functioned once upon a time! Then UAL showed everybody they could ignore it and screwed their fellow members.

Our biggest crisis: The guys who talk like Rez and and PCL are the ones who end up doing the most damage! We have to deal with that. They start out with the fundamentalist ALPA message, get elected/promoted, and then they do the worst. The thesis that it's the members who suck and ALPA leadership is without fault/responsibility is completely wrong.

 

[Lear70]

It's a shared responsibility.

I'll tell you what: show me a union that is OVERSTAFFED with volunteers, that has to TURN PILOTS AWAY who want to be on committees, can pick and choose from the best, brightest, and most-suitable for those jobs, and also who has a better than 90% turnout of "available" pilots (those who aren't at work) for picketing events, MEC quarterly meetings (the important ones), and has a more than 90% vote turnout for EVERY vote, and I'll shut up about membership involvement.

If you don't have that, then it's the MEMBERSHIP that has a problem.

Leadership is required to inform the pilots of "what" is needed, "when" it's needed, and "why" it's needed.

Membership then bears the responsibility to get off their butts and get their tails to whatever event was important for them to attend.

Without that kind of solidarity, you could have the best Leadership in the world and you won't accomplish jack crap.

When pilots realize this, maybe we'll gain some ground again. Personally, I don't think it'll happen. The majority simply can't be "bothered", and want everyone else to do it for them so they can just "come to work and go home". Want to be a blue collar worker? That's the attitude to have... Want things to change? Get off your A S S and work for it.

/rant

p.s. History has shown us that the regional guys aren't going anywhere. Mesaba and Eagle are excellent examples; I know guys who have been there 12-14 YEARS and stick around, holding out for that flow-through or eventual Major interview.

Don't count on attrition to solve your problem. Guys are sticking around, even with crap wages.