ATA to wet lease scheduled airline to SWA?

[atafan]

This is to SWA pilots.

We've been hearing this rumor, a lot.

Effective about mid March. ATA will cease scheduled service as ATA Airlines and begin wet leasing our scheduled service aircraft to SWA. SWA will begin to service international destinations as Southwest Airlines with SWA painted airplanes with operated by ATA Airlines painted near the entry door.

Again, this is only a rumor but it seems to have some legs to it.

 

[Lear70]

This is to SWA pilots.

We've been hearing this rumor, a lot.

Effective about mid March. ATA will seize scheduled service as ATA Airlines and begin wet leasing our scheduled service aircraft to SWA. SWA will begin to service international destinations as Southwest Airlines with SWA painted airplanes with operated by ATA Airlines painted near the entry door.

Again, this is only a rumor but it seems to have some legs to it.

You mean "cease", instead of "seize", right?

Kinda changes the intent, but I see what you meant to say... not that I agree with the rumor, but it's not completely beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[roughneck]

Gary Kelly has said publicly that he will honor the TA'd portions of our contract. He has made mistakes as our CEO, but I seriously doubt he would go back on his word regarding this issue. It would be the end of his tenure as CEO after the meltdown that would follow.

​

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: SECTION 1 – PURPOSE OF AGREEMENT​

The Negotiating Committee and the Company recently reached a Tentative Agreement (TA) on Section 1, Purpose of Agreement. Last week, during a three day session, the Negotiating Committee briefed the SWAPA Board of Directors in great detail and answered all questions regarding the agreement on Section 1. The Board concluded that Section 1 objectives had been met and unanimously endorsed the agreement.
Section 1 language was strengthened in virtually every area. Specifically, the agreement contains significant improvements and protections for the pilot group in the event the Company wishes to expand its network through codeshare and/or marketing agreements. Several improvements to merger, acquisition and successorship language were also realized.
Tentatively Negotiated Changes to Section 1

Scope

• Expanded the overall scope of the contract to capture all of the work done by pilots on the seniority list
• Preserved the positive public association with the valuable SWA brand by allowing only SWAPA pilots to fly SWA aircraft

Recognition

• Protected pilot job security in the event of any transfer of control – voluntary or involuntary
• Received commitment from SWA to make this Collective Bargaining Agreement a condition of any sale in order to protect pilot jobs and wages as negotiated

Merger

• Protected pilot jobs in the event of a merger
• Protected SWAPA pilots’ seniority through a fair and equitable pilot seniority integration system in the event of a merger that includes new pilots
• Removed ambiguity in current language so no successor has leverage to change terms of employment previously negotiated by SWAPA
• Prohibited creation of an affiliate, new airline or subsidiary, or acquisition of a controlling interest in any carrier unless all flying is performed by SWAPA pilots (i.e. avoided creation alter-ego carrier)
• Required reasonable, advance notice and details of any material agreements to SWAPA

Sub-Contracting

• Prohibited SWA from sub-contracting revenue flying.
• Protected against wet-leases

Purchase or Acquisition of Another Company

• Required reasonable, advance notice and details of any material agreements to SWAPA
• Protected pay rates, rules and working conditions from being renegotiated in the event of a purchase
• If pilots are acquired through the purchase of another airline, empowered SWAPA to integrate pilots into the seniority list

Codesharing

• Verified and expanded terms of SWA’s commitment to grow the airline and the Pilot Seniority List
• Expanded Side Letter 32 protections to properly coordinate with remainder of new Scope proposals
• Clearly defined purpose of codesharing; specifically focused on SWA growth and feeder operations
• Defined codeshare transaction to always include at least one flight segment on SWA
• Protected SWA brand identity in relation to codeshare relationships
• Secured Regional Jet (RJ) codeshare protections

Cabotage

• Incorporated cabotage language in CBA, to avoid leaving protections solely to federal regulations
• Prohibited use of SWA code on flights of foreign carriers carrying local revenue passengers or cargo traffic between airports within the U.S.

Foreign Domiciles

• Addressed conditions surrounding foreign domiciles in relation to bidding, relocation expenses and other working conditions

Re-Opener

• Updated language to specify and limit terms for which this CBA may be reopened

Amendments to Agreement

• Future amendments to the agreement will be automatically integrated into an electronic version of the Collective Bargaining Agreement

Definitions

• Added definitions to clarify terms specific to Section 1 of the CBA

 

[roughneck]

Stranger things have happend, but I think if this were to happen it would be a deal between SWA and SWAPA.

SWA: We want to buy ATA's scheduled service, but can't get everyone up to speed in time, can we wet lease?

SWAPA: Sure, you have 90 days to wet lease. Do you want us to put out the upgrade roster, or will yall be calling everyone for upgrade?

 

[jke406]

Gary Kelly has said publicly that he will honor the TA'd portions of our contract. He has made mistakes as our CEO, but I seriously doubt he would go back on his word regarding this issue.

Hey, don't convince us....convince yourself.

 

[roughneck]

You are right, we will see who is in better shape at the end of the day.

 

[skiandsurf]

Does this that the SWA pilots will have to go buy a 757 type ratings to keep their jobs?


or

New SWA hiring requirements to include both a 737 and a 757 type ratings. Thats going to get expensive.

 

[Lear70]

Does this mean that the SWA pilots will have to go buy a 757 type ratings to keep their jobs?


or

New SWA hiring requirements to include both a 737 and a 757 type ratings. Thats going to get expensive.

*snicker*

 

[StopNTSing]

Never mind what's in the TA, even our current scope language would not allow this.

 

[StopNTSing]

Does this that the SWA pilots will have to go buy a 757 type ratings to keep their jobs?


or

New SWA hiring requirements to include both a 737 and a 757 type ratings. Thats going to get expensive.

Yah, that's exactly what it means. You funny-funny guy...

 

[atafan]

Ok, before this gets to be, "mine is bigger than yours" contest. This was a serious question about rumors that are being passed around.

If you haven't heard the rumor or don't have anything constructive to say, please, just move along, nothing to see here.

 

[fellows]

Fact: Global Aero Logistics Wants To Sell
ATA Pax. Ops

Fact: SWA Codeshares With ATA To Hawaii


Assumption: SWA Values Codeshare
Agreement With ATA Which
Allows SWA Pax To Go To
Hawaii.

Question: What Will SWA Do When ATA
Sells Pax Ops?

Assumption: SWA Flies To Hawaii
Themselves.

Or


They Find Another Crafty
Way To "fly To Hawaii"

 

[Eagle757shark]

Fact: Global Aero Logistics Wants To Sell
ATA Pax. Ops

Fact: SWA Codeshares With ATA To Hawaii


Assumption: SWA Values Codeshare
Agreement With ATA Which
Allows SWA Pax To Go To
Hawaii.

Question: What Will SWA Do When ATA
Sells Pax Ops?

Assumption: SWA Flies To Hawaii
Themselves.

Or


They Find Another Crafty
Way To "fly To Hawaii"

Aloha or Hawaiian could possibly enter into a code share agreement with Southwest if the ATA pax service is sold. Anything is possible in this industry.

 

[Dude]

I haven't heard anything plausible in a while. One of your Captains stopped buy our gate in LAS to bring us some food. What a cool guy. Anyway, he said that he was certain the sale of pax ops was imminent but the sale to WN was unlikely due to our association's scope language and codeshare agreements. That being said, I have been witness to numerous erosions of flawed scope language and code share agreements in the past, so nothing would surprise me. Everytime it gets quiet in my room the alarm goes off at a deafening decible.

Hopefully, ya'll will find a method to a better bottom line and bring more guys back to the line. Good luck.

 

[GuppyWN]

The TA'd part of the contract says "protection" from wet leases.

A condom is protection. They don't always work.

Gup

 

[In The Wind]

The question is will WN walk away from 100 mil. in code share rev. They will never get that sort of return from another airline.....

 

[Crucianpilot]

FWIW, I jumpseated on WN last month and the captain said WN had obtained their international op certificate and would begin operating internationally this year probably Mexico and Central America. He got that from a training instructor during recurrent. Anyone else know about this.

 

[skiandsurf]

FWIW, I jumpseated on WN last month and the captain said WN had obtained their international op certificate and would begin operating internationally this year probably Mexico and Central America. He got that from a training instructor during recurrent. Anyone else know about this.

I dont see SWA doing those 20 minute turns in Cancun or Cabo.

 

[atafan]

FWIW, I jumpseated on WN last month and the captain said WN had obtained their international op certificate and would begin operating internationally this year probably Mexico and Central America

SWA could certainly be working in that direction. I don't think they would have already received the Int'l certificate yet because before you actually receive Ops Specs you have to demonstrate your plan and actually have proving runs and training in place. I don't think they have jumped through those hoops yet. They may be in the early process but just not yet.

IMHO

 

[Freight Dog]

I'm not sure that if Aloha was to take ATA's scheduled portion, we'd be able to codeshare with SWA due to our codeshare with UAL. I hear UAL is very jealous of their codesharing partners trying to court others.


Who knows....

 

[HalinTexas]

ATA had an agreement with Pleasant Holidays to do HI flying for many years. When the codeshare came about we were told my mgt. that WN did not want to share a codeshare with anyone. So, I would suspect that if AQ was involved somehow that the UA codeshare would "go away."

Also heard this wet lease is with LatinSky.

Mgt has wanted to keep the ATA certificate to take advantage of the military contract teaming. World and NA are on one team and ATA with Omni is on the other. They want to play both sides of the fence.

Heard from one of WN's guys Sat. that they have been flying airplanes down to C. Amer. for heavies. Don't know how much that would count for Int'l ops, but......

It will take longer than 3 months to get SWA spooled up on Int'l ops. HSA won't let them get their 20 minute or even 30 minute turns. Secondly, unless they get a some waiver, doubt it, then they'll have to start assigned seating to deal with pax manifests that must be forwarded between countries. Take a little while to get everyone spooled up since they've never done it before.

HI for WN? Forget it. It will take too long for them to get ETOPS. Took AK 22 months. Besides, the B737 is a terrible ETOPS airplane.

 

[Freight Dog]

So, I would suspect that if AQ was involved somehow that the UA codeshare would "go away."

It gets screwy considering that UA has a stake in AQ (the details of how much STILL aren't public), and they have a seat on our Board.

Wouldn't it be nice to know some stuff?

 

[HalinTexas]

It gets screwy considering that UA has a stake in AQ (the details of how much STILL aren't public), and they have a seat on our Board.

Wouldn't it be nice to know some stuff?

But then they'd have to kill you.

 

[RedDogC130]

We would still need to re-vamp the reservation system to allow foreign currency.

I spoke with our company head of operational safety a few months back and he said they would still need to create or improve the company security programs to deal with int'l ops. I don't know how long or deep that would be.

 

[Lear70]

It will take longer than 3 months to get SWA spooled up on Int'l ops. HSA won't let them get their 20 minute or even 30 minute turns.

20 minutes? Nope.

30 minutes? Maybe.

Money solves a lot of ills, and it's not the Mexico or Canadian side of it you'd have to worry about getting a quick turn out of it, it's the U.S. side.

Did several 30-40 minute turns like this in both countries. Not a problem. It's the down-time in the U.S. when the aircraft has to be completely down-loaded, searched thoroughly, cleared by your individual customs guy with 5 forms of paperwork to do, then re-pre-flighted by the flight crew after everyone else has monkeyed with it, etc that would get you.

Secondly, unless they get a some waiver, doubt it, then they'll have to start assigned seating to deal with pax manifests that must be forwarded between countries. Take a little while to get everyone spooled up since they've never done it before.

It wouldn't be that big of a deal. Assigned seating would flow nicely into the current zone-loading thing going on right now at SWA. I've actually seen some airTran 737's loaded faster than the SWA planes these days with that boarding process.

What makes you guys turn an airplane so fast is the ground crew. You staff nearly twice as many people and flip the ground-side faster than any airline I've ever seen.

HI for WN? Forget it. It will take too long for them to get ETOPS. Took AK 22 months. Besides, the B737 is a terrible ETOPS airplane.

No argument there...

My bet is when the 737 replacement comes online, SWA will have everything in place to start international ops with it - my bet is it will be a much better int'l platform.

Pure speculation, but with SWA so heavily involved in its design, I'd be highly surprised if it didn't fit the bill for int'l expansion.

 

[GuppyWN]

We're going to have everything "in place" to do international ops by 2009. Straight from Gary. We will have to assign seats but only on the intl' side.

ETOPS? You don't have to apply for it you just have to buy someone that's already got it. And if the 737 is such a terrible ETOPS platform then why is AQ ATA and AS doing it? Cause it's what's they've got.

Gup

 

[HalinTexas]

20 minutes? Nope.

30 minutes? Maybe.

Money solves a lot of ills, and it's not the Mexico or Canadian side of it you'd have to worry about getting a quick turn out of it, it's the U.S. side.

Did several 30-40 minute turns like this in both countries. Not a problem. It's the down-time in the U.S. when the aircraft has to be completely down-loaded, searched thoroughly, cleared by your individual customs guy with 5 forms of paperwork to do, then re-pre-flighted by the flight crew after everyone else has monkeyed with it, etc that would get you.


It wouldn't be that big of a deal. Assigned seating would flow nicely into the current zone-loading thing going on right now at SWA. I've actually seen some airTran 737's loaded faster than the SWA planes these days with that boarding process.

What makes you guys turn an airplane so fast is the ground crew. You staff nearly twice as many people and flip the ground-side faster than any airline I've ever seen.


No argument there...

My bet is when the 737 replacement comes online, SWA will have everything in place to start international ops with it - my bet is it will be a much better int'l platform.

Pure speculation, but with SWA so heavily involved in its design, I'd be highly surprised if it didn't fit the bill for int'l expansion.

If you've never done it before, this isn't something you can train by memo. It takes time to schedule the required personel to come and learn it. Pilot's and FA's are fairly easy to train to go to Mex., Can., but you can't throw money at those governments.

The hard parts are res. CSA's MX, dispatch. That also takes time. Then, there's the proving runs.

The 737 replacement is further off than the 787. What is SWA gonna use in the mean time? Meanwhile the competition is way ahead of ya.

It ain't what you see that makes it (or not) it's what you don't see.

 

[HalinTexas]

We're going to have everything "in place" to do international ops by 2009. Straight from Gary. We will have to assign seats but only on the intl' side.

ETOPS? You don't have to apply for it you just have to buy someone that's already got it. And if the 737 is such a terrible ETOPS platform then why is AQ ATA and AS doing it? Cause it's what's they've got.

Gup

Exactly X 2. But that still doesn't make it something you want to stick with. ATA has turned away more money because we can't haul freight to HI than I can count.

SWA might have more than one product line under it's banner, too.