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NWA/DAL + Air France $750 Mil

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Diesel-9

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2005
Posts
527
http://www.startribune.com/business/15859527.html . Related Content
The proposed combination of Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines, structured as a stock swap and including a $750 million investment from Air France-KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, is set to be unveiled as soon as the pilots from both carriers resolve issues surrounding seniority.
"The merger agreement is in fact ready to sign. It is done," a source familiar with the negotiations told the Star Tribune Thursday.
Having reviewed the details of the deal Wednesday, Northwest's board is expected to meet again to act on resolutions authorizing management to implement the merger, the source said. "That won't happen until there is a pilot agreement, if there is," the person said.
The carriers' pilot groups are struggling to figure out a way to blend their workforces in a fair manner. Northwest and Delta pilots are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Northwest ALPA's executive council met Thursday to discuss the merger, the proposed labor contract and the union's strategy to resolve the seniority conflict. Pilot leaders are expected to continue that meeting today.
"Reaching agreement on economic issues prior to a formal merger would give Wall Street confidence in the new consolidated entity, which means improved value -- and thus improved equity -- for our pilots," Dave Stevens, chairman of the Northwest pilots union, said in a recent memo to his members. "Cooperation adds to the synergies of the new company, which allows it to pay higher wages, another benefit for our members."
If the merger is approved, Northwest and Delta would become the world's largest airline, headquartered in Atlanta.
Air France-KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, which has joint venture business relationships with the two U.S. based carriers, would invest $750 million in the merged carrier, the source said.
Negotiators for the pilots and the company have a tentative agreement on a contract, which contains raises of more than 30 percent over four years for the Northwest pilots. Northwest's board of directors convened in New York City last Saturday to review the merger agreement in detail with Northwest's legal counsel, then met again Wednesday via a teleconference. While the pilot groups are negotiating with each other on seniority, any agreement they reach will have to be reviewed by the Northwest and Delta boards.
Historically and in broad terms, seniority was defined by a pilot's date of hire with an airline. Ranking on the seniority list determines which pilots fly the largest planes, and earn the most money.
But a number of considerations come into play when merging pilot seniority lists.
For instance, a large number of Delta pilots chose to retire a few years ago before Delta terminated its defined-benefit pension plan. As a result, some of the pilots now flying Delta's largest aircraft are younger than their counterparts at Northwest, meaning they could lose their higher-paying aircraft assignments if length of service were the sole criterion for merging the pilot ranks.
 
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http://www.startribune.com/business/15859527.html . Related Content
The proposed combination of Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines, structured as a stock swap and including a $750 million investment from Air France-KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, is set to be unveiled as soon as the pilots from both carriers resolve issues surrounding seniority.
"The merger agreement is in fact ready to sign. It is done," a source familiar with the negotiations told the Star Tribune Thursday.
Having reviewed the details of the deal Wednesday, Northwest's board is expected to meet again to act on resolutions authorizing management to implement the merger, the source said. "That won't happen until there is a pilot agreement, if there is," the person said.
The carriers' pilot groups are struggling to figure out a way to blend their workforces in a fair manner. Northwest and Delta pilots are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Northwest ALPA's executive council met Thursday to discuss the merger, the proposed labor contract and the union's strategy to resolve the seniority conflict. Pilot leaders are expected to continue that meeting today.
"Reaching agreement on economic issues prior to a formal merger would give Wall Street confidence in the new consolidated entity, which means improved value -- and thus improved equity -- for our pilots," Dave Stevens, chairman of the Northwest pilots union, said in a recent memo to his members. "Cooperation adds to the synergies of the new company, which allows it to pay higher wages, another benefit for our members."
If the merger is approved, Northwest and Delta would become the world's largest airline, headquartered in Atlanta.
Air France-KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, which has joint venture business relationships with the two U.S. based carriers, would invest $750 million in the merged carrier, the source said.
Negotiators for the pilots and the company have a tentative agreement on a contract, which contains raises of more than 30 percent over four years for the Northwest pilots. Northwest's board of directors convened in New York City last Saturday to review the merger agreement in detail with Northwest's legal counsel, then met again Wednesday via a teleconference. While the pilot groups are negotiating with each other on seniority, any agreement they reach will have to be reviewed by the Northwest and Delta boards.
Historically and in broad terms, seniority was defined by a pilot's date of hire with an airline. Ranking on the seniority list determines which pilots fly the largest planes, and earn the most money.
But a number of considerations come into play when merging pilot seniority lists.
For instance, a large number of Delta pilots chose to retire a few years ago before Delta terminated its defined-benefit pension plan. As a result, some of the pilots now flying Delta's largest aircraft are younger than their counterparts at Northwest, meaning they could lose their higher-paying aircraft assignments if length of service were the sole criterion for merging the pilot ranks.


And don't forget what the NWA pilots stand to gain also if this merger goes through....

1. A higher pay raise (double digits while DL pilots get a "modest pay raise.")

2. Better work rules

3. Better bases to eventually bid

4. They keep their pension, which they fought for when they gave up their work rules, which they will get back while DL pilots do not get their pension back.


Somehow the press always leaves that part out.... SLI is the only thing DL pilots will get out of this deal, if it happens at all. And fencing equipment or bases would be fine with me too.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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But a chance for French Fries and Merlot with the crew meals

That does sound pretty good......well, okay, let's do it.....f#$@ it!


Bye Bye--General Lee :)
 
And don't forget what the NWA pilots stand to gain also if this merger goes through....

1. A higher pay raise (double digits while DL pilots get a "modest pay raise.")
This will be fixed next contract-Guaranteed!

2. Better work rules
Work rule improvements are marginal, unless new ones were negotiated. Also, who's Scope clause would survive? That's a huge advantage for NWA.

3. Better bases to eventually bid
This is a bit subjective-it may be true for some, not for others. I do personnally know 3 DAL guys who live in the Twin Cities. It goes both ways.

4. They keep their pension, which they fought for when they gave up their work rules, which they will get back while DL pilots do not get their pension back.
Work rules will get fixed. NWA has superior scope. I don't see giving an inferior SLI to NWA guys for short term gain.

Also, what's going to replace the 767? When these go and are replaced by NWA's 68 orders/options for 787's, what should happen to the DAL guys? Bump them back to the 73s and MDs?

Somehow the press always leaves that part out.... SLI is the only thing DL pilots will get out of this deal, if it happens at all. And fencing equipment or bases would be fine with me too.
Will you still be OK with fences if your 76s are replaced with NWA 787s? Just asking.

Drastically improving DAL's profit margins and new source of revenue to pay off your near term debt should be pretty important to your pilot group as well. Take a look at the balance sheets, debt schedules, profit margins and cash flows. All significantly favor NWA.

Any NWA pilot gains would be short term. A SLI windfall lasts a career. We won't stand for it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Schwanker
 
1. A higher pay raise (double digits while DL pilots get a "modest pay raise.")
This will be fixed next contract-Guaranteed!

In how many years? There will be a new amendable date I am sure... Yes, we will wait....4 more..?


2. Better work rules
Work rule improvements are marginal, unless new ones were negotiated. Also, who's Scope clause would survive? That's a huge advantage for NWA.

Your work rules suck. I talked to a DC9 FO at JFK and he said he was on a 5 day trip and the first day was MSP-MDW and he got only 1 hour credit for that day. Marginal??? Scope--yeah, we have 3 for 1 for new planes, but they are ditching most of our 50s and all of the 37 seaters. You seem to forget that a large chunk of your mainline--up to 30 DC9-30s are leaving this year alone, with nothing replacing them. We aren't losing any narrowbodies, nor widebodies, and growing.




3. Better bases to eventually bid
This is a bit subjective-it may be true for some, not for others. I do personnally know 3 DAL guys who live in the Twin Cities. It goes both ways.

Those 3 guys might be the only ones that want to stay in your bases. How many senior guys live in FLA or AZ and fly for NWA? A lot more than we have going your way, by a mile.


4. They keep their pension, which they fought for when they gave up their work rules, which they will get back while DL pilots do not get their pension back.
Work rules will get fixed. NWA has superior scope. I don't see giving an inferior SLI to NWA guys for short term gain. Superior scope with a dwindling mainline. DC9s are going with no replacement. You can't refute that.

Also, what's going to replace the 767? When these go and are replaced by NWA's 68 orders/options for 787's, what should happen to the DAL guys? Bump them back to the 73s and MDs?

The 767ERs are getting winglets and will stay for awhile. They are fairly new (anything is new compared to your DC9s), and will keep flying. We just got 17 757ERs from AA (ex TWA), and they were built in the late 90s.

What should happen? Anything that is currently ordered maybe could be fenced. Anything after a merger might not. More orders are on the way supposedly. When do you think our 767s are going to go anyway? They aren't as old as you think. Those were the 767-200s, and they are gone now. The rest are in good shape. Even AA still flies their 762s, and look at their old MD80s (which aren't as old as your DC9s---again)



Somehow the press always leaves that part out.... SLI is the only thing DL pilots will get out of this deal, if it happens at all. And fencing equipment or bases would be fine with me too.
Will you still be OK with fences if your 76s are replaced with NWA 787s? Just asking. What is going to replace your A330s? The 767s will be around a lot longer than you think. Your plan was the 744s were going to replace your 742s in the cargo arena, and the 787s were going to replace your A330s and 744s, right? Tell me how it was going to go? Any room on those orders to replace our 767s too? I don't think so.

Drastically improving DAL's profit margins and new source of revenue to pay off your near term debt should be pretty important to your pilot group as well. Take a look at the balance sheets, debt schedules, profit margins and cash flows. All significantly favor NWA.

Our growing INTL flying will help pay off any short term debt, with higher yields coming. And, good ole Air France could help us if we need it, especially if we don't merge. They seem to want to help a bunch, and that could help if somehow we get squeezed. Lufthansa helped Jetblue. It pays to have rich friends sometimes.... We don't really NEED your help.




Any NWA pilot gains would be short term. A SLI windfall lasts a career. We won't stand for it.
You just can't have everything. You get something, and we will too, or it won't happen. It will not be one sided, and you will give something, trust me, or you will stay alone in the frozen North. CAL pilots won't put up with one sidedness either.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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The arrogance of the NWA pilots astounds me sometimes. Your current work rules are pathetic. You are losing DC9s this year and these are being replaced by E175s - good job on protecting mainline flying. You are losing your 747-200s because they are too expensive. You have 20 something 787s on firm order that may or may not arrive on time. You b!tch but you still have your pensions.

I see the DAL/NWA combination as a win-win for all parties. Sure, this is a negotiation, but using the aggressive tactics (suggesting DOH and pushing thousands of DAL pilots to the bottom) and rumor leaking is not going to lead to an optimal outcome. I thought offering NWA the 400 top slots would be a good gesture but evidently not. Percentage merger seems a lot more fair at the current time vs. who will be "on top" 10 years from now - who cares? The airline industry could be a lot different in 10 years... All DAL/NWA pilots would then be part of a stronger and more dynamic airline - that would be very positive for everyone and there would likely be better job security. Percentage merger makes the most sense - if you are currently in the bottom 5% of NWA or DAL, you should be in the bottom 5% of the combined carrier. Again, with few route overlaps, there won't be much (if any) flight reductions - except on the regional side.

IMHO, NWA brings a lot less to the table than DAL (total route structure, fleet number, etc.). Sure, access to Asia is important, but DAL 777s could bypass NRT altogether if needed. You'd never know it by the way the NWA pilots are talkin'...
 
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Give the DAL pilots the 5% share in the combined carrier, the entire % of pay raise distributed among the DAL pilots only. Fence all WB's and DC-9's until they are replaced. Offer early retirement to NWA's top 1000-1200 pilots and distribute the rest of the note to be replaced by a DC fund and do the list via DOH.

If NWA's MEC thinks they will see a 30% pay raise, more favorable work rules, and a chunk of the company as well as west coast living opportunities (ever) in their next contract or even the one after that, it is time to put the dubie down.

Keep it up boys and we will be lucky to see this offer when they do merge, or hopefully best case scenario the whole thing will die in the coming weeks.

DAL will have hired approx. 650 pilots since Feb. 5th 2007 --current seniority lists run about a month behind on the company website and do not account for the 100/month they are hiring as we speak.
 
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Will the New DL/NWA and Air France surrender during a fare war with Lufthansa?:laugh:

On a serious note, would a single pay rate for all aircraft types work?
 
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6-
What NWA guys are looking for is a fair SLI. GL and others think you deserve a windfall. Percentage merger isn't any fairer then DOH. NWA will be prividing nearly all the attrition for the next 13 years as the majority of your older guys are still in their early 50's and will likely stay til 65. NWA's older guys are in their mid-late 50's and most should be gone at 60 thanks to the pension. By the way, we gave up pay to save this pension which should push attrition at 60.

NWA has attrition out the top. DAL does not. You seem quick to discount this. It's about career expectations. I'm expecting to retire with a double digit number. A percentile merger will leave me retiring with over 500 in front of me. Do you consider that fair? I believe it's a windfall for one group at the expense of the other.
 
"If NWA's MEC thinks they will see a 30% pay raise, more favorable work rules, and a chunk of the company as well as west coast living opportunities (ever) in their next contract or even the one after that, it is time to put the dubie down." Based on DAL financials, you wouldn't be getting much soon either without this deal. We have a ton of people out west. I recent study debated to open up HNL again. Think it will happen with more -330 orders. SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX trips have been looked at to be built out of the current SEA base. Many ANC commuters out west that will bid back into any combination of LAX/HNL bases opening up. With all NWA LAX gates, a base will open there again as the 787 fleet grows.
 
Hi!

On basing:

MSP is better than any DAL base.
DTW HAS to be worse!

cliff
YIP
 
Percentage merger makes the most sense - if you are currently in the bottom 5% of NWA or DAL, you should be in the bottom 5% of the combined carrier.

How about you expand this into career expectations: If you were to retire at the 4th percentile, you structure the new list to retire at the 4th percentile?
 
"If NWA's MEC thinks they will see a 30% pay raise, more favorable work rules, and a chunk of the company as well as west coast living opportunities (ever) in their next contract or even the one after that, it is time to put the dubie down." Based on DAL financials, you wouldn't be getting much soon either without this deal. We have a ton of people out west. I recent study debated to open up HNL again. Think it will happen with more -330 orders. SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX trips have been looked at to be built out of the current SEA base. Many ANC commuters out west that will bid back into any combination of LAX/HNL bases opening up. With all NWA LAX gates, a base will open there again as the 787 fleet grows.

You speak as if we are ready to go back into BK. That simply is not the case. And, we could always get a quick infusion from Air France if we really need it.

And, any merger would result in NWA moving to our Terminal 5 at LAX, which has plenty of open gates or gates occupied by Expressjet E145s right now. We already have a large pilot base there, and a 777 base may not be out of the question, thanks to the new Open Skies agreement with Australia, and our newly won rights to the South Pacific (Singapore, New Zealand, and Samoa). How many gates do you have at terminal 3 in LAX? Could you build a hub there without more gates? How about in SEA? I have seen a couple of your A330s at the island terminal out there, along with a couple 757s or A320s. Could you have a significant presence anywhere on the West Coast? Could you get the gates?


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

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