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I disagree; I think very few pilots are confused about this. Had the Easties been happy with the arbitration decision there wouldn't be an election. Where there is confusion is about how being in the majority can and cannot affect pre-existing contract terms. The U-SAPs seem to think they can just vote away the Transition Agreement and impose DOH/LOS on us. That'll be just one of many rude surprises if USAPA prevails.

www.USAPA.org


So mark yourself down as one who is confused.:D

While there are various groups or individuals who seek to play the victim, none (even Nicolau) should flatter themselves that they can engender even a tenth of the resolve that ALPA national has been producing.
 
The relevance of this article is in the last paragraph. The industry knows what kind of people USAPAs are.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080220/delta_northwest.html?.v=16

Seniority an Issue for Delta, Northwest
Wednesday February 20, 6:10 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer Pilot Seniority Dispute a Roadblock in Delta-Northwest Talks

ATLANTA (AP) -- Northwest Airlines Corp. pilots have integration issues to sort out. Not just the ones with their counterparts at Delta Air Lines Inc. that threaten to scuttle talks to combine the two carriers. The ones with Republic Airlines. From 1986.

An arbitrator is still sorting out seniority questions from that deal, illustrating just how much the point matters. Employees at the top of the list get first choice on vacations, the best routes and the bigger planes that they get paid more for flying.

The boards of Delta and Northwest had been expected to vote Wednesday on a combination projected to be worth $20 billion if a pilot deal was in place. It was not clear if the boards met, though a person familiar with the negotiations said a merger deal would not be announced Thursday as had been hoped. That person said a deal now could be announced at the beginning of next week, presuming everything falls into place by then.

Delta and Northwest don't need a labor agreement between the pilots unions before announcing a combination, but having one in place could help speed up the integration of the companies down the line.

"I think they obviously recognize that with an unhappy pilots group, that could make the merger and integration process painful and expensive," said Dan Kasper, an airline consultant with LECG in Cambridge, Mass.

Pilots at US Airways and America West waited until after the 2005 announcement that the airlines would combine to try to hammer out a seniority and joint contract accord. Nearly three years later, no joint pilot contract has been reached.

People close to the Delta-Northwest talks said the pilots unions have agreed on a comprehensive joint contract, but cannot agree to how seniority for the 12,000 pilots would work under a combined carrier. The people asked not to be named because of the sensitive stage of the talks.

John D. Kasarda, a management professor at the University of North Carolina's Kenan-Flagler Business School, said it would be prudent for airline executives to wait for the pilots to settle their differences.
"One more week to resolve a pivotal issue would generate far greater returns to both airlines," said Kasarda, who has studied airline labor issues. "I think Delta and Northwest are very astute for getting that issue resolved."

Kasarda said blending seniority lists is always a problem when airlines combine because different unions have different rules. "That is a resolvable issue, and I believe it will be resolved," he said.
A problem for the unions is the difference in age of their pilots. Northwest pilots tend to be older than Delta pilots because many senior pilots retired from Delta during the run-up to the airline's 2005 bankruptcy filing.

Talk of airline consolidation has heightened in recent months amid persistently high fuel prices, which are eating away at the industry's bottom line.
A combination of Atlanta-based Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest would create the world's largest airline in terms of traffic, before any divestitures regulators might require.

Many terms of how a combined Delta-Northwest would operate had been resolved as of Tuesday, two people close to the talks said. The airline would be based in Atlanta, would be called Delta and Delta's chief executive, Richard Anderson, would be head of the new company, the people said.

It remained unclear what role Northwest's CEO, Doug Steenland, would play, the people said. A joint Delta-Northwest would maintain a substantial presence in Minneapolis and there would be no furloughs for front-line U.S. employees, the people said. The two airlines have roughly 85,000 total employees.

But pilots at Northwest still have unresolved issues 22 years after the carrier's combination with Republic Airlines.

Northwest, with its Pacific routes, had a fleet of widebody aircraft and pilots who aspired to fly them when it bought domestically focused Republic. Republic pilots poured into the ranks, some with years of experience that would put them in line for the big planes ahead of Northwest pilots.

An arbitrator decided that pre-merger Northwest pilots would stay in line for the big jets ahead of Republic pilots. That locked some pilots out of widebody flying for decades and caused serious bitterness. The Air Line Pilots Association said an arbitrator is still working on some of the issues, although it declined to provide details.

Arbitration might not be desirable for Delta's pilots union because of concern that younger Delta pilots might lose the seniority they obtained after the mass exodus of older pilots, Kasper said.

As a result, some of those Delta pilots may be on the same footing as older Northwest pilots who have been flying longer, Kasper said.

There was no similar exodus of veteran Northwest pilots when it went through bankruptcy because the company froze pilot pensions -- so they still got what they had earned, although their pensions stopped growing. Delta terminated its pilots' defined benefit pension plan while the company was in bankruptcy.

A person close to the talks said Tuesday night that a small group of Northwest pilot negotiators want thousands of young Delta pilots to go to the bottom of the combined seniority list as part of agreeing to a deal. The person said that was a major hang-up.

But Greg Rizzuto, a spokesman for Northwest's pilots union, said Wednesday that the labor group is united, and all it wants is what's fair, noting that a pilot's career is tied to his or her seniority ranking.

Airline consultant Robert Mann said some of the same sorts of claims were made in the US Airways-America West talks. "The US Airways guys, who were in bankruptcy, if they had their druthers they would have stapled every single America West pilot to the bottom of their seniority list," Mann said. "You have some of the same emotion playing out here."
 
The only solution is Date of Hire, but with fences to protect domiciles and seats. Step up to that reality and move forward together.
 
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This means that there will be an election to determine what union represents the pilots of USAir. All the pilots of USAir will soon participate in a secret ballot to determine which group will serve as the bargaining agent, ALPA or USAPA.

Many pilots are confused and assume the election is about Nic. Strictly speaking though, the election will not change the Nic award. But the majority of those who support USAPA have always understood that the decert effort never was about Nic in the first place.

The cutoff date of November 13, 2007 is not a date relative to the election to be conducted, but is rather a date related to who is eligible to vote. All pilots hired after November 13th last year will be ineligible to vote.

The election should probably happen in early to mid March with a count announced before the end of April.

Turtle21,

Thanks for the explanation.
 
The Readers Digest version of FLYLOW's post is "give em what they want or the place blows up." No matter how those guys try to pretty it up, that's pretty much the message. Yeah, they aren't scabs, but.....

It is what it is.

It takes a "big" group in the West to realize that the Nic award may be legal, but is it the best thing for everyone to enact?

The majority of the total group needs to be happy or it's over at US.

May not be fair but neither was Nicolau. He was legal though.
 
Better remove those quotation marks because nobody from the West said it's in our favor. The perception that the Nicolau Award favors the West is only because the (unrealistic) expectations of the East were so high. Nicolau chose an integration that was closer to our request because it was more reasonable. Have you read the Award? Nicolau explains his reasoning thoroughly and there's no "harshness" in it. PM me if you'd like a Word version of the Award.

Oh, and how exactly did ALPA "F" up? Everybody knew what ALPA Merger Policy was and nobody complained about it until one side didn't get what they wanted.

TWA,

How could an Am West guy NOT feel that he faired better than a US Airways guy?

That was my point of the quotation (paraphrase).

I've read the award. It was an award for the America West. It was a punishment to US Airways. A staple job.

Right, wrong? I really don't think either of us are qualified to give more than our respective opinions.

I do know that the majority of the combined pilot seniority list must be made to feel whole in this seniority issue. It's a big issue.

Without it, I see many troubled days ahead for the group when it needs desperately to congeal and work as a group to improve pay and working conditions.

What did ALPA fail to do? Just about everything that really matters. ALPA National sat back and watched the crash occur when it should have took a VERY active part, a leadership role, in the seniority integration process.

US has always been viewed as an Oliver Twist of the industry. America West was not even on the radar of ALPA National. Sure, they were represented but ALPA has always been about UAL, 1st and foremost.

I find it incredible now that the ENTIRE industry will now be affected by the US/AM West seniority debacle due to gross negligence on ALPAs part by NOT managing the situation like any pilot would manage a mechanical emergency or a weather deviation. ALPA boned it up.

Watch what happens with the other mergers coming Tdub. Ask yourself if ALPA did it any better for them and why.

Nic is legal, but that's about the best thing I can say about it.
 
The only solution is Date of Hire, but with fences to protect domiciles and seats. Step up to that reality and move forward together.

Ahha!! This guy gets it.

There are multiple ways to find a solution. This is one... a better one than Nic for everyone involved.
 
As an outsider looking in it seems the Easties on this board are quick to blame National for any number of perceived wrongs against their group...but nobody , NOT A SINGLE ONE, is so much as pointing a finger at their elected leadership in the MEC for their failures.

That silence is quite telling.
 
As an outsider looking in it seems the Easties on this board are quick to blame National for any number of perceived wrongs against their group...but nobody , NOT A SINGLE ONE, is so much as pointing a finger at their elected leadership in the MEC for their failures.

That silence is quite telling.


The only failure they have that matters is that they are doing their best to keep sucking on the ALPA teet.
 
TWA,

How could an Am West guy NOT feel that he faired better than a US Airways guy?

Because, since the merger three years ago, everyone at AWA is right where they were. There have been 150 retirements and only 26 upgrades. Junior f/o's have been on reserve for going on 4 years with no end in sight. Our flying migrates east because the company is whip-sawing us. You guys do it cheaper and seem to like it that way. We had excellent growth and career progression prospects before Doug stepped in and saved your company from certain liquidation.

That was my point of the quotation (paraphrase).

I've read the award. It was an award for the America West. It was a punishment to US Airways. A staple job.

It was only a staple job for those who were furloughed and brought nothing to the merger table. Really, how many of those guys expected to return to US? They were filling out apps at every carrier that was hiring or looking into other careers. And where are they now? In the left seat of the 190 or flying wide body intl if that's what they want. In the mean time, we stagnate out west. Your sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

Right, wrong? I really don't think either of us are qualified to give more than our respective opinions.

I do know that the majority of the combined pilot seniority list must be made to feel whole in this seniority issue. It's a big issue.

Without it, I see many troubled days ahead for the group when it needs desperately to congeal and work as a group to improve pay and working conditions.

Agreed. So drop the stupid USAPA drive and vote to keep ALPA in. We'll all have a new contract soon, and be able to move forward and deal with whatever the industry throws at us.

What did ALPA fail to do? Just about everything that really matters. ALPA National sat back and watched the crash occur when it should have took a VERY active part, a leadership role, in the seniority integration process.

You're right. ALPA should have presented the nic award to management before the ink was dry instead of being all wishy-washy and giving you easties the hope that it could be changed.

US has always been viewed as an Oliver Twist of the industry. America West was not even on the radar of ALPA National. Sure, they were represented but ALPA has always been about UAL, 1st and foremost.

You are correct that AWA was never given the respect that it was due from ALPA nat'l. That's half the reason we're in this predicament today. If ALPA nat'l had been impartial, they would have defended the nic award from day one. With that being said, ALPA is the only realistic way for us to move forward as a team, able to pursue better working conditions and compensation as a combined entity.


I find it incredible now that the ENTIRE industry will now be affected by the US/AM West seniority debacle due to gross negligence on ALPAs part by NOT managing the situation like any pilot would manage a mechanical emergency or a weather deviation. ALPA boned it up.

Watch what happens with the other mergers coming Tdub. Ask yourself if ALPA did it any better for them and why.

Nic is legal, but that's about the best thing I can say about it.

The bottom line is that your MC and our MC argued their positions in front of an arbitrator who was very experienced with airline seniority integration. He was empowered by both of our groups to make a decision and did just that. ALPA is not at fault for the outcome.
 
I don't see how anybody could expect anything else from the the East. When 22 years of loyal ALPA membership gets you like 6 yrs seniority that's just poor policy on ALPA's part.

I'm gonna go out on a limb...
1. You are fully aware that someone spent 22 years somewhere, and somebody is gonna pay.
2. You have no clue what so ever the predicament that the OLD US Air was in financially.
3. You have no clue about the reasonably sound foundations that AWA was in experiencing (save for the statements made by the upper AWA management that we might not make it ....albiet self serving to keep the east troops happy??).
4. You have never read the complete ALPA Merger policy, nor the fact that Date of Hire has been absent from that policy for better than 15 years.
5. You did not read any of the transcripts pertaining to the arbitration between AWA and AAa.
6. You did not read the Nicolau Award.
7. Oh yea, did I mention that you were fully aware that someone at the NEW US AIRWAYS has 22 years with ALPA representation....and by gosh someone is gonna pay!!!
 
The bottom line is that your MC and our MC argued their positions in front of an arbitrator who was very experienced with airline seniority integration. He was empowered by both of our groups to make a decision and did just that. ALPA is not at fault for the outcome.

Respectfully,

Not my MC. Not anymore. I've cut my loses with the US "dynasty".

Call me a guy who can't stand to watch a train wreck without trying to prevent it.

It may/will still happen. Without strong corrective action from both sides (east and west), the wreck will occur.

Nic's final award did not appeal to the majority. The majority must be appeased in any organization that flourishes inside of a Democratic Organization (a Union).

For example, see what happens down the road if this seniority issue is not addressed in a responsible manner (yes, east included).

You will all fail.

Right, wrong or indifferent... I personally have nothing to lose. I think it's the profession at large that has something to lose and every pilot working at the "new" US Airways that have the most to lose.

In the end, it's not what Nic's award (punishment) says. It's about what the majority feels.
 

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