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Should pax know pilot experience ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jetflier
  • Start date Start date
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Experience Knows

1/16 mile? :eek:

So what's the "high" time guy gonna do vs. a "low" time guy in that situation?
The experienced guy's @sshole will be a little bit more puckered since he knows what the danger is during his autoland and the low time guy would just be along for the ride and completely relaxed knowing that this stuff works perfect all of the time!:laugh:
 
Whether pilots like it or not, WE are going to have to fight for it. Personally. As in willingness to strike. As in willingness to see your company go into bankruptcy and possibly liquidate if they won't meet the wage needs of the employees.

It's a risk. But nothing good in life comes without some risk. Question is, how many of the SJS, ipod-in-the-airport, backpack-toting, spike-frosted-haired, sunglasses-in-the-airport-wearing kids are going to stand up with you and fight alongside you for it?
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Well- i get conflicted- but maybe if the older generation showed some leadership- helped to educate the young crowd who has been told from day 1- 'just keep on working- you'll be making a $100k before you know it!' - You sell out the young guys by releasing your scope- thereby marginalizing the whole skill set and then expect them to ... what? turn down the job? set the bar?

Old guys expecting young guys to take the lead is just silly. YOU LEAD- you're the one who has seen all the games- step up! The only reason young guys do what they do is b/c they have to in order to get to a major. ... when of course, life becomes a utopia, right? ;)

Everything in your post is excellent except for that one excuse.

Truth is, we've been divided in every possible way. Junior v Senior. Heavy v Narrow. Major v Regional. Old v Young. Mil v Civ. "X" company v "Y" company.

Name it and we fight over it. We won't see that until we can set aside our ego's = give respect to every aviator- from 172 to F16 to Rj to 73 to 74. We ALL fly. Until we come together- we won't see gains.

It's called a union for a reason.
 
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Yes- we should show experience. That gains us leverage. There was a movement at AA that got killed in the baby faze after 9/11. Put your experience on your uniform. add a smaller stripe for every year in the biz. a subtle badge for every type rating or every thousand hours. The uniform is modeled after the military uniform... don't be over the top- but add a little extra so that someone can tell an experienced 777 captain from a 1900 captain. They do feel better knowing that.

The unions also need to increase the education and experience required to do the job. We've had a pissing contest w/ the JAA over academics for how long. How about we adopt their academics and become the undisputed authority in licensing pilots. The unions will have to back this. We've dumbed this down- turned training into "you don't need to know that" and we now fail to understand why wages have gone down. When something becomes easier- people will be willing to do it for less. Make it harder. It should be anyway... i know and we all know plenty of pilots who end up passing training w/o studying nearly as much an you or i did. It disrespects your responsibility to the flying public to allow that.

You don't see doctors willing to do their job for free. A big part of that is b/c it was so difficult to get through school. The standards are set by other doctors - We need to set the same standards.
 
Well- i get conflicted- but maybe if the older generation showed some leadership- helped to educate the young crowd who has been told from day 1- 'just keep on working- you'll be making a $100k before you know it!' - You sell out the young guys by releasing your scope- thereby marginalizing the whole skill set and then expect them to ... what? turn down the job? set the bar?

Old guys expecting young guys to take the lead is just silly. YOU LEAD- you're the one who has seen all the games- step up! The only reason young guys do what they do is b/c they have to in order to get to a major. ... when of course, life becomes a utopia, right? ;)

Everything in your post is excellent except for that one excuse.
I *AM* leading by example.

I was sitting on the street without a job because I lead the charge to reject a substandard T.A. by our management group. I will be on the street for over a year waiting to get my job back.

My only consolation is that it WAS rejected by 2/3 of our pilot group.

And yes, I *DO* expect you to turn down the job if the pay sucks. I've done the same thing by not even applying to any of the street CA regionals or SkyBus when I didn't have a job.

You don't have to whore yourself out to get to a major. I didn't. No one else has to, either.

Have some self-respect...
 
wow- that's it then huh?- There's a difference between an experienced pilot not accepting a low wage and an inexperienced one doing it to build time. How did you build time and how much were you paid? \\
The regionals are nothing more than a more insidious B-Scale. Worse because at least w/ B-scales you got a seniority number out of it.
 
We've had a pissing contest w/ the JAA over academics for how long. How about we adopt their academics and become the undisputed authority in licensing pilots. The unions will have to back this.

I don't think volumes of aerodynamic engineering and morris code practical tests have anything to do with a highly skilled, safe pilot. The JAA is a joke, we do NOT need that here. You harp on the AMA and while its true they have an extreme ammount of trivia they have to initially learn, I doubt there is one doctor in the nation who could pass every mid term and final found in medical school years after the fact.

Yet you advocate that here and imply it should be part of recurrents and line checks. Filling people's heads with crap just for the sake of using more hard drive space won't make anyone safer and won't do a thing to increase our wages.

Oh and by the way the AMA sets the standards, trains and self checks themselves. Once you pass your trials by fire and become a full qualified, almighty doctor, the training and checking you do from that point on is nothing compared to the stresses of medical school.

And yes, there is plenty you don't need to know. While the pay and benefits needs to be restored in this profession, the answer is not to simply make things harder just to make them harder and wages will suddenly go up. And even if that was true (which it is not) it wouldn't do anything to make the system any more safe.
 
wow- that's it then huh?- There's a difference between an experienced pilot not accepting a low wage and an inexperienced one doing it to build time. How did you build time and how much were you paid? \\
I started out as a flight instructor out of college, making $30 an hour back in '94, flying 3 or 4 hours a day. Did that for 18 months, while moonlighting around the field and getting to know the 135 operators. That was around $18k a year, equivalent to approximately $27k in today's dollars.

At 900 hours I got on as a C-90 King Air F/O making $75 a day (20k a year, or about $30k in today's dollars). Upgraded 6 months later at 1200 hours to PIC, flew single pilot 135 pax and freight for another year making $150 a day. That was '96-97.

At 1,500 hours I got my ATP and at 1,800 hours got hired as a Lear F/O making the same thing ($150 a day). Upgraded 8 months later to CA on the Lear, making $300 a day.

Got hired by Flexjet in '98 at $36k a year starting pay in '99. Upgraded in 5 months to CA, went to $55k a year.

There's been ups and downs since then; went to a 727 freight company, made CA in a year on the 727 at 29 years of age, then the entire company got furloughed when FedEx took over the US Postal Service contract and I had the option between Netjets (which was about 4 years old at the time and only beginning to really boom as a great place to be) and Pinnacle as a street CA. I chose the 121 route because I wanted to fly for the airlines... biggest single mistake I ever made, but hindsight is 20/20. Hated signing for $55k a year at a regional but it was what it was, and I fought tooth and nail with the pilot group fighting for our rights and trying to obtain a better contract before I left for airTran.

It *CAN* be done without paying $50k to GIA (or whatever it is these days) to get a job for $18k TODAY as an F/O... It just takes patience and perseverance. I turned down several "buy-a-job" type offers along the way, because I refused to whore myself out.

I honestly think the spiral down the tube happened back in the mid-90's when the regionals were really ramping up, scope was sold down the river, and pay-for-training became an accepted "norm". You probably weren't flying then (I had just started), so it's not your fault, but here's the kicker:

If you want better wages, better quality of life, you're going to have to stop blaming everyone else and pick up the bar and raise it YOURSELF. Don't blame the senior pilots, even though they gave scope away long ago and started this mess. Don't blame the mid-level guys who are senior RJ CA's or junior Major pilots, even though many of them PFT'd.

Simply accept that ALL of us are going to have to simply say "no more", and lead by example, even amongst our peers (including wherever you happen to be) who might try taking the easy route. LEADERSHIP happens when ONE person makes it their PERSONAL responsibility to do the right thing for themselves, their coworkers, and their profession.

Until this happens, you're NOT going to get a better wage. You're NOT going to get better Quality-Of-Life. Nothing comes for free, or simply because "it's the right thing for management to do", because we all know senior management is only doing right by the shareholders, often at the expense of the employees.

YOU are going to have to "take it back". Legally, for certain, with help from your coworkers, absolutely, but take it back, nonetheless, by solidarity, negotiations, and willingness to STFD.

Those who aren't willing to step up and fight that fight should simply STFU, quit their complaining about poor wages and work rules, and realize it's their own fault.

If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

And yes, that's the way it is. Sorry if that offends you, but reality is often harsh.
 
1/16 mile? :eek:

So what's the "high" time guy gonna do vs. a "low" time guy in that situation?

Experience counts,...and you know it!

I'd feel more comfortable putting my kid on the more experienced person's aircraft, ...you would too.
 
Experience counts,...and you know it!

I'd feel more comfortable putting my kid on the more experienced person's aircraft, ...you would too.

Getting back to YOUR original statement, "1/16th of a mile at LGA". I haven't been there in a while, but I'm guessing thats below mins for those approaches. So the answer is easy. Hold til it gets better, or divert. Does one have to have 20000 hrs to figure that out?

Experience does count, you're right. But that doesn't preclude one from doing some dumb sh*t in an airplane....I've seen it & I'm sure you have too.:eek:

Except in that lame Age 65 debate........we all know that's not what that was about.
 
The experienced guy's @sshole will be a little bit more puckered since he knows what the danger is during his autoland and the low time guy would just be along for the ride and completely relaxed knowing that this stuff works perfect all of the time!:laugh:


You missed the point too......1/16th of a mile at LGA.
That was the original question.

Let me know how that autoland works out in that situation.

Have that ASAP handy.
 
So the answer is easy. Hold til it gets better, or divert. Does one have to have 20000 hrs to figure that out?

Sure, but does "Skippy" catch onto the fact his alternate fuel is based on a near perfect altitude and route, or through a line of storms because of a canned flight plan from a likewise "lowtime" dispatcher?

As a civi guy, I was no different with that amount of flight time. You can be a good safe guy, but there is simply not enough experience to rely upon when the cluster-ks happen.
 

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