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Question for DAL,CAL,NWA,UAL Pilots RE Mergers and Pay Raise/Work Improvements....

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NWA is getting rid of 30 or so DC9-30s this year, and planned to still hire. It would take a couple years to draw down the rest of the DC9s (-40s/-50s), or they would give up market share to those individual cities those planes go to, and you can't make RJs fast enough to replace them. Did you know Boeing is considering expanding the 737 assembly line? It was in Yahoo finance today or yesterday. Boeing was one of our creditors, and I think it might be a coincidence (wink wink) that we could be dumping DC9s slowly (if we merge) and replace them with 737-700s. Just a guess.... We have an outstanding order for around 25 I believe, and we get 7 this year.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Unfortunately you either don't know the FACTS or choose to ignore them. NWA can only take 18 more RJs. That's it. Also, if it made sense to dump paid for DC-9s to replace them with 737's, NWA would already have started. Maybe you should take a look at the Q4 conference call when Steenland answered this question. Financing the new aircraft would kill any advantages of bringing in a new jet at this point. Continue back to your dream land. I really don't give a rat's A$$ what you think as you're obviously not much more than a kool-aide drinker.


Schwanker
 
GL,
Can you enlighten us how many that would be?
Thanks.
Schwanker

Bye the way, why do you sound so defensive about the composition of your International Fleet? I thought you were proud of it.

We have a great fleet, but more of a regional INTL fleet. We used to have MD11s, L1011s and 777s, but BK and bad past management tends to park planes before thinking. We are getting 2 more 777s this month for BOM service (those 777ERs on it currently will go to Shanghai and the new LRs will carry more cargo and pax to BOM), and another one or two coming at the end of the year, with 6 more next year. Rumors have it that we will have a total of 20 within the next two years--so 12 more on top of the 8.

As far as the 767ERs go, they are good for 10-12 hour missions, and we fly them all over Europe with good cargo capacity and good pax configurations. The plane you are forgetting about is our 767-400, which is paid more than your A330, and carries a lot more cargo and pax than the 767ER. We have 21 of them, and they do a great job. We are adding winglets to our 767ER fleet, and the longest leg currently is Lagos to ATL, blocked in at 12:55, and we have a crew rest facility in it, totally enclosed. Not bad at all.

Defensive? You are making fun of our 8 777s, when you are losing planes and will lose more. We just got 17 more 757-200ERs from AA, have 777s on the way, and 737-700s. Think about that as you park DC9s. Hopefully if we do merge some MD90s will come along and replace those DC9s. We have already looked at some, and I have heard there are 100 or more out there waiting for someone to pick them up for cheap.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Unfortunately you either don't know the FACTS or choose to ignore them. NWA can only take 18 more RJs. That's it. Also, if it made sense to dump paid for DC-9s to replace them with 737's, NWA would already have started. Maybe you should take a look at the Q4 conference call when Steenland answered this question. Financing the new aircraft would kill any advantages of bringing in a new jet at this point. Continue back to your dream land. I really don't give a rat's A$$ what you think as you're obviously not much more than a kool-aide drinker.


Schwanker

Everyone I have talked to in the Chief pilot position (not in the board room or negotiating table I know...) here in ATL has said Delta (if we merge with you) will park the DC9s EVENTUALLY. Could that be 3 years from now? Sure. I have no idea. But, they won't be in the long term plans. That is what a lot of the junior guys on this forum are worried about. What will replace them? Boeing adding to their production line COULD solve that problem, and so could the 100 or so MD90s that are awaiting a new owner. That is what I am bringing up here. If we merge with you, your DC9s will be the first mainline planes to go, whenever that will be.

And here is another point. We at Delta have a scope clause that allows 3 new 76 seaters for every NEW airplane we bring on here at Mainline. How many new planes have we gotten lately? 17 757-200ERs from TWA/AA, and 2 new 777s coming in March. Could that spill over to you guys if we merge? Good question. Those 18 more RJs allowed for you may increase to 50, and those DC9s might be gone sooner. I hope both of our MECs are addressing that right now---and pay attention to scope along with getting that pay raise that doesn't mean much if we lose more mainline planes anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Defensive? You are making fun of our 8 777s.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

I wasn't making fun at all. I simply thought the 777 fleet was larger. That's it. I think my words were "eye opening." I was simply using the same terminology as the previous poster in response to him. Sorry you're so defensive. I'll try to be more sensitive as this was not a slam in any stretch. Just what was printed the merger propaganda I was reading.

Schwanker
 
I wasn't making fun at all. I simply thought the 777 fleet was larger. That's it. I think my words were "eye opening." I was simply using the same terminology as the previous poster in response to him. Sorry you're so defensive. I'll try to be more sensitive as this was not a slam in any stretch. Just what was printed the merger propaganda I was reading.

Schwanker

Sorry, long day. I think I was being a bit defensive. No need to be more sensitive, I just need a cold beverage.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Everyone I have talked to in the Chief pilot position (not in the board room or negotiating table I know...) here in ATL has said Delta (if we merge with you) will park the DC9s EVENTUALLY. Could that be 3 years from now? Sure. I have no idea. But, they won't be in the long term plans. That is what a lot of the junior guys on this forum are worried about. What will replace them? Boeing adding to their production line COULD solve that problem, and so could the 100 or so MD90s that are awaiting a new owner. That is what I am bringing up here. If we merge with you, your DC9s will be the first mainline planes to go, whenever that will be.

And here is another point. We at Delta have a scope clause that allows 3 new 76 seaters for every NEW airplane we bring on here at Mainline. How many new planes have we gotten lately? 17 757-200ERs from TWA/AA, and 2 new 777s coming in March. Could that spill over to you guys if we merge? Good question. Those 18 more RJs allowed for you may increase to 50, and those DC9s might be gone sooner. I hope both of our MECs are addressing that right now---and pay attention to scope along with getting that pay raise that doesn't mean much if we lose more mainline planes anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

They will go eventually. This isn't exactly earth shattering news. Current plans are to hold them at least 5 more years. We'll see what pans out. Gotta run.

Schwanker
 
Just get a damn good contract before you guys merge...so AMR and UAL/CAL can follow.

Not sure about damn good but it looks like they're working on something. Yikes.....


Delta, Northwest Focus
On Joint Pilot Contract
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA
February 9, 2008

Executives at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. are trying to build a common labor contract for the 11,000 pilots at both airlines before they complete a merger deal, according to people familiar with the matter.


The negotiations, considered essential for smooth integration of those key labor groups, center on organizing a fair way of forming a unified, seniority-based roster. Without a prior agreement, talks with those pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, are tasks that could take years of bargaining to accomplish.

Delta and Northwest want to quickly achieve the synergies that would flow from a merger and avoid a messy, protracted labor wrangle that could arise if they wait to get pilots' agreements after a merger were announced or consummated, those people said. US Airways Group Inc. and America West Airlines, which merged in 2005, still haven't been able to integrate their pilots, leading to inefficiencies and hard feelings.

The pilot talks, which also include provisions for pilots to get equity in the combined carrier, are determining the pace for what otherwise is viewed as a straightforward transaction, said one person close to the situation. Because the pilot talks could lead to improved contract terms for both groups compared with their current contracts, the union is engaged, one person said.

Still, it is taking time despite a rush by executives to complete merger discussions quickly in hopes of getting approval by regulators this year. Given the ongoing discussions, people familiar with the situation said, Delta and Northwest might not be able to finalize their proposed merger until late next week at the earliest.

For Delta, an agreement with pilots is crucial because they represent the carrier's only major labor union. The possibility of a merger, however, is leading other labor groups to grow increasingly vocal.

Labor organizers among Delta flight attendants recently received enough support to make plans next week to announce a vote on whether to join the Association of Flight Attendants, a national union. The attendants now have support from well over half of the airline's 12,000 flight attendants, according to people familiar with their efforts, and next week they are expected to file their plans for a vote with the National Mediation Board.

Betsy Talton, a spokeswoman for Delta, said the airline is "not surprised" by the attendants' plans and that the airline continues to believe that "Delta employees have always benefited from a direct relationship with management." She declined to comment on any negotiations with Northwest or the pilots. Northwest also declined to comment on merger talks.

Delta directors, who met Thursday and Friday, were given a presentation of what a combined airline would look like, said one person familiar with the situation. Though Delta has also discussed a merger with UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, according to people familiar with those discussions, talks with Northwest have been more productive.

Delta's board was also briefed on several other points in the deal negotiations, the person familiar with the meeting said.

The role of Doug Steenland, Northwest's chief executive officer, in a merged company has been resolved, two people familiar with the discussions said. While Mr. Steenland wouldn't be a member of the executive management team, he could take part as a board member.

One point that must be resolved is the possibility that Air France-KLM SA, which has marketing ties with both Delta and Northwest, could invest nearly $1 billion in a combined carrier, according to people familiar with the situation. A spokeswoman for Air France in the U.S. said corporate investments must be addressed by the airline's offices in France; a representative in Paris couldn't be reached late Friday
 
And here is another point. We at Delta have a scope clause that allows 3 new 76 seaters for every NEW airplane we bring on here at Mainline. How many new planes have we gotten lately? 17 757-200ERs from TWA/AA, and 2 new 777s coming in March. Could that spill over to you guys if we merge? Good question. Those 18 more RJs allowed for you may increase to 50, and those DC9s might be gone sooner. I hope both of our MECs are addressing that right now---and pay attention to scope along with getting that pay raise that doesn't mean much if we lose more mainline planes anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree with you for once, Scope is very important and honestly needs changing. All new planes should be flown by mainline pilots for mainline wages. NWA feeders are tapped out after 18 more planes, why not flip what you said and dump the DAL scope clause. No way should it be 3 rjs to 1 mainline aircraft, thats crazy. Bottom line is mainline guys need to stop giving away their flying to anyone.
 
what NWA should do is take compass under their wing, staple those guys to the bottom, and keep the airplanes on their side of the fence. 180 pilots is a small price to pay for scope and any aircraft nwa tries to throw compass' way. my .02
 
what NWA should do is take compass under their wing, staple those guys to the bottom, and keep the airplanes on their side of the fence. 180 pilots is a small price to pay for scope and any aircraft nwa tries to throw compass' way. my .02

But they would have the same leevrage either way, regardless of those 180 pilots. They don't have any need whatsoever to put those individual pilots on their list to hold or recapture scope.
 
But they would have the same leevrage either way, regardless of those 180 pilots. They don't have any need whatsoever to put those individual pilots on their list to hold or recapture scope.


True but I think he was saying to bring the E-175s on to the NWA ticket, thus bringing the compass pilots over. Either way I agree Scope should be a MAJOR priority for every carrier. You cant keep giving away your flying and jobs. This would be a perfect opportunity to recapture scope. JMHO
 
What I thought was eye opening was Delta only has 8 (eight) 777's. The rest of the WB fleet consists of a 767 mix.

I found it eye opening that 2 out of 3 NWA aircraft are smaller in gauge than the smallest aircraft in the DAL fleet the MD-88 and that DAL's wide wodied fleet is twice as large as NWA's.

We can play that game too, but where is that going to get us?
 
I found it eye opening that 2 out of 3 NWA aircraft are smaller in gauge than the smallest aircraft in the DAL fleet the MD-88 and that DAL's wide wodied fleet is twice as large as NWA's.

We can play that game too, but where is that going to get us?
Well, it will get us nowhere, but that's the point of FI ;)

Are you saying that NWA 148 seat A320's, of which we have 71, are smaller gauge than an MD-88? If not, then how do you figure 2/3 of the NWA fleet is smaller than your MD88? The DC-9 and A319 seat fewer than your maddogs. Thats 150 a/c out of a fleet of 365.
As long as we're "playing that game", half of NWA's widebodies are bigger than DALs biggest a/c.

Now, wasn't that productive?:beer:
 
Well, it will get us nowhere, but that's the point of FI ;)

That's the point I was trying to make.

Are you saying that NWA 148 seat A320's, of which we have 71, are smaller gauge than an MD-88?

My bad. Bad math.

The DC-9 and A319 seat fewer than your maddogs. Thats 150 a/c out of a fleet of 365.

Would that be between a third and one half of your fleet?

As long as we're "playing that game", half of NWA's widebodies are bigger than DALs biggest a/c.

That's true.
Now, wasn't that productive?:beer:
Maybe. If it opens our eyes to the facts and not the perceptions.

If there is a merger, the only way this will work to our advantage as pilots is if we can avoid the adversarial relationship integrations have followed in the past and adopt a common strategy. That wont be easy, but I'm sure it can be done.:beer:
 

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