What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[Tweaker]

I heard some 14 day countdown began 1/23/8. Does anyone know if this is close to a vote conclusion?

Is is true that new hires may not vote?

 

[TWA Dude]

No announcement from the NMB yet. As far as newhires, I would think all pilots on the seniority list would be eligible to vote.

 

[Bringupthebird]

No announcement from the NMB yet. As far as newhires, I would think all pilots on the seniority list would be eligible to vote.

So should a new-hire vote for a union that has made considerable progress towards a joint contract and promotes stability and therefore job security? [ALPA]

Or should they support a group that will further divide the pilot group and drag out the instability for many years, perhaps putting their positions in jeopardy, for the sole purpose of advancing the career progression of senior F/O's, at the expense of everyone else?[Bargain store brand]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Questions for USAPA supporters....

Question: What will be the dues rate?

Q: What is fundamentally different about USAPA that will make it better? Is it progressive and/or innovative?

Q: Looking long term, will USAPA just be another pilots union or will the energy, enthusiasm and effectiveness endure? If so...why? How?

Q: How does the APA compare? Is the APA a good model? Does USAPA want to be like APA or better and/or different?

Q: What are USAPA's top five priorities?

Q: The USAPA website calls for volunteers and democratic participation. How does that differ from ALPA?

 

[TWA Dude]

Q: How does the APA compare? Is the APA a good model? Does USAPA want to be like APA or better and/or different?

I know you want a USAPA supporter to answer and I'm not impersonating one but I just wanted to point out that as a former Teamster, a current (inactive) APA member, and an ALPA member at three different carriers I feel comfortable saying there's nothing intrinsically better or worse about the organization of any pilots' unions. The APA is just as screwed-up and has just as many internal detractors as does ALPA. Unity and happiness in one's union comes more from effective leadership than any other component. Effective pilot union leaders are few and far in between.

 

[ferlo]

IMO, any us air new hire that votes for usapa, if given the chance, is crazy. The airline will implode in short order, the furloughs will flow, and they'll be wishing for their Mesa seat back.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm somewhat curious how the dimwitted USAPA supporters think they'll be able to run their union without ALPA's help. Every other independent pilots' union pays ALPA to help them with lots of things, but it would be political suicide for the USAPA "leadership" to keep giving money to ALPA for services after all of this crying about ALPA that they've been doing. Besides, I doubt ALPA would even do business with them.

 

[Turtle21]

I heard some 14 day countdown began 1/23/8. Does anyone know if this is close to a vote conclusion?

Is is true that new hires may not vote?

The NMB has ruled that the pilots of USAir comprise a single carrier. That is if a representational vote occurs then a majority of those voting (as long as 50% of eligible voters vote) will establish which Constitution and Bylaws govern the CBA.

The NMB declared February 6th as the date that all cards must be turned in. The company is now required to provide a list of all the pilots along with their status and address. The NMB will next validate the number of cards and determine if there is sufficient number to require an election. If so they will establish the date of the election and distribute balloting information to the pilots at the address supplied by the company.

All pilots (active, medical leave, furloughed, etc) should be able to vote, but the NMB will establish who is eligible to vote in the election.

There are many who oppose the right of individuals to vote and the derisive rhetoric will likely increase as the democratic process moves forward.

It seems all but certain that a representational election is now unavoidable. More than ample cards to force the election were submitted in November, and now again duplicate cards were submitted at the beginning of February. It might be problematic for ALPA to prove the cards are invalid, seeing that over 3200 have been submitted twice .

 

[MK82Man]

These are the questions I’d like the East guys to answer:

1) ALPA was fine until the binding arbitration ruling came out and then the East didn’t like the results. At that point, the East pushed USAPA in order to delay and stall the implementation of the Nicolau Award. How will USAPA overturn the Federal Binding Arbitrated Seniority List?

2) Does USAPA have the financial resources to fight the West as they litigate over the Federal Seniority Award?

3) Now that 65 has passed, US Airways has very little attrition. Since that was the chief argument of the East “the west has no right to our attrition during the merger”, how does USAPA plan to expedite the joint contract talks?

Since 80% of the work has already been done between both ALPA parties (ok mostly between the West and ALPA National, since the East hasn’t been at the table with us for 9 months), why would someone vote for USAPA and start the process all over again?

The West pilots will drag their feet for years. Since the East guys are now big-time stagnated due to age 65, why would you vote for a new union that will only prolong the path to a joint contract?

The East guys are still stuck on their LOA contract while the West guys actually have a real contract. Why would you vote for a group that keeps you on the sub-standard LOA wage and work-rules contract?

The only winner (every single day) is management as contract talks just stall forever and ever.

4) At some point isn’t it just better to work together for a better future. We are a new company, the new US Airways. It isn’t the US Air of old and it isn’t the America West of old, we are stuck together, like it or not. USAPA is a clearly divisive tactic designed to stall the merger integration and enable the East to upgrade their FOs to Captain outside the Nicolau Award. It is designed to help the East take advantage of the West. Rather than alienate 1800 West pilots who will not pay dues and enlist ALPA National help to litigate, why didn’t the East seek a different path to protect their FOs rather than just insist on a DOH seniority list?

Finally for all ALPA members …. Do you realize how much this is costing ALPA? We get tons of flyers printed, tons of letters at home … the postage bill alone must be huge. Not to mention the Blue Ribbon Committee, Special Committee, Committee of Concerned Pilots, Joint Task Force, Airline Pilot Mom’s who resolve to figure it out – all designed to resolve differences, promote mutual understanding and harmony (the glittering generalities are killing me) …. It just goes on and on. The Flight Pay Loss alone that all ALPA members are paying must be stunning and the senior leader’s hotel bills and per diem cost over the issue of East and West integration is a significant sum. Why isn’t the rest of ALPA rising up and criticizing the East guys for playing outside the sandbox? The East actions are costing all 65,000 guys a staggering sum of money … all wasted since they weren’t happy with the Seniority Award.

And of course the East guys will tell you …. It is more than that. We haven’t been happy with ALPA for years; this was just the final straw …. sure.

I’d like some East guys to post on why you submitted cards and why you intend to vote for USAPA if an election is held

 

[Lampshade]

When is USAPA gonna break the news to the flock about dues and assessments to get this Titanic off the docks? My guess 2% dues plus $1000/500 CA/FO yearly assessment as a starter.

 

[vetrider]

Oh boy, brace yourself for another round of incoming righteousness.

 

[Turtle21]

....
I’d like some East guys to post on why you submitted cards and why you intend to vote for USAPA if an election is held

It is increasingly likely the vote will occur. It is hard to imagine a way for ALPA to avoid it now. Some will spend a lot of time trying to revisit why the vote is upon us or try to convince others how they should vote. That is not me. I could care less why we are here because there is no way to turn back time. It is what it is. Vote for the Constittution and Bylaws you want.

Whichever bridge we pick, we'll move on and cross the next bridge when we get to it.

Cheers

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Why I submitted the card.


1. ALPA agreed to do away with the pension with no pilot vote.

2. ALPA allowed the increase from 85 hours to 95 hours a month. that kept the furloughees out another 2 years at least.

3. ALPA allowed the sales outsourcing of the 170's and 175's, keeping the furloughees out and downgrading more Captains. At least we kept the 190's Thanks to the AWA guys as I understand it.

4. ALPA allowed the wholesale outsourcing frenzy of RJ's (hundreds of airframes) with over 1800 pilots on the street.

5. ALPA couldn't have cared less about me (furloughee) for the past five years, now that I have a vote they want to be my best friend again.

Just a partial list and I am not including the hose job at my furloughee job with another carrier at the hands of ALPA national.

For the last 6 years I have watched ALPA support whoever fills their pockets more, They seem to have lost sight of what their purpose is, not the "Association" as their letters to me keep stating, but the pilots.

Is USAPA the right choice? Dunno, but a little change is not always bad. Win or lose this process will have the effect of shaking things up and reminding the union (whoever it ends up being) what their real purpose is.....and it is not their bank account.

 

[ironspud]

Why I submitted the card.


1. ALPA agreed to do away with the pension with no pilot vote.

2. ALPA allowed the increase from 85 hours to 95 hours a month. that kept the furloughees out another 2 years at least.

3. ALPA allowed the outsourcing of the 170's and 175's, keeping the furloughees out and downgrading more Captains.

4. ALPA allowed the wholesale outsourcing frenzy of RJ's (hundreds of airframes) with over 1800 pilots on the street.

So ALPA '"allowed" all that stuff eh? I am an ardent ALPA hater. but that is just plain stupid.

 

[TWA Dude]

Snorter: you forgot to mention that all those things occured as a result of your MEC, as in your elected representatives. Dumping the whole union won't change a thing. Why didn't y'all demand a recall of your elected reps when they failed to disclose the arbitration hearing transcripts which detailed Nicolau telling you you won't be getting DOH?

One word: SCAPEGOATING!

 

[tico]

As someone who is "enjoying the" results of an arbitrated settlement....Richard Kasher for Alaska Airlines.....where we (alpa) sued to have the award vacated as a result of non-compliance with the arbitration process on both Kasher and Alaska Airlines part......and where the federal court agreed that there was cause to vacate but that it did not want to set a precedent and that the benefit of the award standing was greater than the benefit of the award being vacated......I am wondering how a new union will affect any change in the Nicalau award...That arbitration is complete and will stand with alpa, usapa or no union at all.....So given that eventually, all of usair will be working under that award and that switching unions will have no outcome on that integration, what other benefit will come with a new union....I would certainly hope that the people who promised d.o.h. for integration are not now promising that will happen with this change.....Wasn't it whitesnake that said "once bitten twice shy baby"....Now I can see plenty of benefit with a new union especially if the old defunct alpa group from usair are not allowed to participate in the new union....A fresh start with new updated ideas could be a great thing.....I hope it works as it could be a model of things to come for all of us and it might drive some much needed change in the old alpa....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

So ALPA '"allowed" all that stuff eh? I am an ardent ALPA hater. but that is just plain stupid.

Yes the union had to agree to all of it for the company to be allowed to do it. That is a very simplified version, but in the end that is the case. There is an ALPA signature on each one of those agreements.

It is not so much the fact that it happened as the way it happened, I sat for 6 years and watched ALPA roll over to mgmt. time and time again. If there are extenuating circumstances as to why they let scope, retirement, and all the other stuff go with no more than minimal lip service I am all ears. We still have some time before the vote.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes the union had to agree to all of it for the company to be allowed to do it.

No they didn't. The bankruptcy court would have approved far more onerous concessions, and then would have issued an injunction to prevent a work stoppage. ALPA did everything possible, and probably prevented far worse concessions that would have happened in an 1113(c) filing. It's easy to make ALPA your scapegoat, but you should place your blame where it belongs: an anti-labor government and anti-labor courts.

 

[Prog 2/2]

So ALPA '"allowed" all that stuff eh? I am an ardent ALPA hater. but that is just plain stupid.

Brother Ironspud, there you have the crux of it.

Nothing but scapegoating and a seat grab going on here.

This isn't about ALPA, its' failings, or a lack of representation, it's about the Nicolau decision. USAPA didn't exist the day before the seniority arbitration was concluded, and only exists now as a venue to bypass the agreed to process to gain a joint contract.

The east knows that they can never overturn Nicolau, that there will be no reordering of the seniority list, and that they can't vote in a new union and scrap the arbitration.

What they are trying to do is scrap ALPA so that the new contract will be negotiated by USAPA.

And that new contract will contain alot of fancy "bid restrictions", "seat protections", and fences that will effectively gut the arbitrated decision.

And that contract will pass, because the easties outnumber us, and the representation scheme outlined by USAPA is designed solely to disenfranchise the west.

Like I said, nothing but scapegoating and a seat grab.

"Runway heading to five, four flight attendants"

 

[ferlo]

USAPA is nothing but a pig with new lipstick on it...ALPA has failed me more ways than I'd like to remember but I will say this...my life would be worse without them. USAPA is a guaranteed destroyer of the next ten years. No Past Practice, 40% won't pay dues, endless litigation, no collective bargaining agreement...nothing. USAPA is a total wasteland. Parker will be laughing all the way to the bank for years upon years.

These East guys blame everybody but themselves for this B.S. "date of hire or nothing" stance they took. The East dug their own grave, and now like little 13 year old bitches, they won't stop crying. Beware of what you wish for, you just might get it. The damage USAPA can cause it's members is on par with any form of scab.

 

[ALGFLYR]

I am wondering how a new union will affect any change in the Nicalau award...That arbitration is complete and will stand with alpa, usapa or no union at all......

Well, I'm not sure how they are thinking, but here is a possible way...

The problem with the ALPA structure is that there are two groups (one from East and one from West) negotiating a joint contract. If the East negotiators wanted to make a change in the contract protecting the East bases or upgrades, and the West did not agree, that would never make it into a proposal.

However, if a new union wins the election, the entire pilot group would be under that one union and a lot of that East/West distinction as far as the union goes would go away. The new collective MEC would then create a new negotiating team.

I don't think management cares who upgrades as long as they can staff the airline. If the pay is the same, who cares which side they came from...

Section 22 of the contract says base and captain bids are based on seniority. They make a simple change to that language saying those will now be based on length of service with the company. The Nic. seniority list will stay intact, although it would be virtually meaningless as far as upgrading and bases are concerned...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

amazing....

 

[PCL_128]

Well, I'm not sure how they are thinking, but here is a possible way...

The problem with the ALPA structure is that there are two groups (one from East and one from West) negotiating a joint contract. If the East negotiators wanted to make a change in the contract protecting the East bases or upgrades, and the West did not agree, that would never make it into a proposal.

However, if a new union wins the election, the entire pilot group would be under that one union and a lot of that East/West distinction as far as the union goes would go away. The new collective MEC would then create a new negotiating team.

I don't think management cares who upgrades as long as they can staff the airline. If the pay is the same, who cares which side they came from...

Section 22 of the contract says base and captain bids are based on seniority. They make a simple change to that language saying those will now be based on length of service with the company. The Nic. seniority list will stay intact, although it would be virtually meaningless as far as upgrading and bases are concerned...

And you think the West pilots are going to just sit by and allow you and uSAPa to rape them? I think not. They'll refuse to pay dues, and with 40% of the pilot group not paying dues, the new "union" will be completely impotent (although these idiots would probably be impotent even if 100% paid their dues). Then a small group of West pilots that actually join and pay dues will be able to sue uSAPa for DFR, since a virtual abrogation of the Nic award is an obvious DFR breach. uSAPa would be bankrupt just trying to defend against the lawsuit, never even getting to the point of having to pay out a settlement. You guys are mind-numbingly stupid if you think this uSAPa nonsense will lead you to anywhere but immense failure.

 

[PositiveRate]

Keep in mind, most of the rhettoric and pure stupidity posted by the likes of Kerosene, BeCareful and Weasil Lips are guys who were furloughed and are the most disenfranchised of the East bunch.

You can pretty much ignore ALGFLYER - he was neither an America West employee or US Airways employee and should be thankful he even gets to fight with us as he backdoored his way in and should be happy to be at the bottom of the list, not scabbily salivating over some dream of a seat grab with the rest of the USAPA d-bags.

 

[Lampshade]

Well, I'm not sure how they are thinking, but here is a possible way...

However, if a new union wins the election, the entire pilot group would be under that one union and a lot of that East/West distinction as far as the union goes would go away. The new collective MEC would then create a new negotiating team.

You forgot about the TA I guess? We're under one union now btw!!

Section 22 of the contract says base and captain bids are based on seniority. They make a simple change to that language saying those will now be based on length of service with the company. The Nic. seniority list will stay intact, although it would be virtually meaningless as far as upgrading and bases are concerned...

How are you going to change your contract its not open for 2 years? And even then you think management's going to approve of that with a federal arbitration sitting on there desk? Apparently you haven't thought your plan through all the way (sounds like USAPA).

 

[vetrider]

Its still the same brain trust, they still haven't figured out that they can't just will it to happen their way. "You gotta understand......" "It has to......" Uh huh, right.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

amazing....

Yes, it is amazing. In fact, I am a little disappointed. I was hoping I was going to be called in as a divide and conquer consultant. Looks like the pilots are doing a swell job themselves.

Thanks alot!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, it is amazing. In fact, I am a little disappointed. I was hoping I was going to be called in as a divide and conquer consultant. Looks like the pilots are doing a swell job themselves.

Thanks alot!

Hey Frankie....

Dickie Cheney wants to know if you want to hang out with the Bushes and go huntin'.

This is a great opportunity for you.. to get together with your political allies!

 

[PHXFLYR]

Keep in mind, most of the rhettoric and pure stupidity posted by the likes of Kerosene, BeCareful and Weasil Lips are guys who were furloughed and are the most disenfranchised of the East bunch.

You can pretty much ignore ALGFLYER - he was neither an America West employee or US Airways employee and should be thankful he even gets to fight with us as he backdoored his way in and should be happy to be at the bottom of the list,.....

Sure did. Him and his buddy Trainer 8 sure think they're one of the boys now, don't they?

PHXFLYR

 

[JoeMerchant]

amazing....

...whats amazing is people like you thinking this is some brotherhood.....it is every man for themself......

...age 60, scope, and mergers.....It's all about me....