NWA pilots want stake in merged carrier....article

[General Lee]

Good point on the retirements. As far as the West Coast and domestic expansion, I hope you are right but I have a feeling management is thinking domestic contraction instead.

I think we intend to build the INTL side out of LA and maybe SFO, and we can do it in LA thanks to all of the Expressjet E145s currently taking the gates. They were meant as a stopgap so we could hold onto the gates after BK and not let Alaska take terminal 5 (for the better customs). We have gotten approval to fly to Singapore, New Zealand, Samoa, and other areas in SE Asia (not Australia, yet), and I think Delta would be interested in looking at those. I think JFK is our primary focus for INTL, with Socal as our second. We'll see. As far as domestic contraction, if NWA and DL get together, then CVG could be closed along with MEM, but those planes could be used out West. I have heard other rumors of expansion down south (Lima, Sao Paulo, etc) from LAX as well.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

I've also heard the theory that DAL and NWA accomplished much more in BK after watching UAL and have less debt.

There's different kinds of debt. Debt that doesn't include a unilateral clause allowing for renegotiation is "bad" debt. Debt that is actually someone else's $$ doing your heavy lifting in exchange for a strategic objective (Rolls Royce is financing NW's B787's), is "good" debt.

It just seems that except for Skyteam and great people, DL and NWA have almost nothing in common.

1. Richard Anderson. He worked his way up from an entry-level position to CEO...and actually learned how an airline and it's employees operate.

2. Antsy shareholders. The dweebs that overpaid me for my Claim also hold too much DL paper. That commonality is driving some of this.

3. The Skyteam partners. They have been influencing things to their benefit for the "3 stooges" (NW, DL, CO) in the U.S. for specific reason. If you combine #2 above, with the desire of AF/KL to own 25% of the MergeCo (See also: "Delta"), you see a mutually beneficial opportunity.

Are there solutions to the narrowbody fleet that pilots would have any input over? Compass?

Yes, but I won't discuss them here. Compass pilots are represented by the Chairman of Council 1, a NW B757 captain. He's on it. I think Mesaba fairs well too. Side note: I'm looking forward to seeing the first Mesaba guys flowing up next month! It will be fun to boss 'em around at NATCO! :beer:

I see this as a whole lot of pain and you still end up with gaping holes in coverage such as the West Coast.

Agree. I think all possible combinations have some weaknesses.

I think Anderson has an appreciation of the NW presence in the midwest. One of his favorites expressions was, "It's cold and it's dark...but it's OURS!" MSP remains the largest market not served by SWA, and the way we defend our two hubs is a case study in "patria defensor". Reno, Sun Country, Frontier, Midwest, and American all tried to go mano-a-mano with NW...and pulled back.

As far as fences, I hope you're right that a smart integration wouldn't need them. I see them as protection against the ultimate quality of life killer... not being able to hold your current base and equipment. Almost as bad would be seeing your in-base upgrade potential evaporate. Worse yet would be seeing an entire fleet retired and you're newly integrated job go with it.

Fences are unnecessary. I'm assuming in a DL/NW merger, all equipment would see an increase in rates. That means DL categories would still pay higher than NW categories. Since no-bump-no-flush is embedded in BOTH systems right now, fences would serve only to prevent the double-breasted horde from storming up to DTW to fly our jets for less money.

Not likely!

If a few categories are moved by the Marketing folks to another base (HNL base for NW on hold 'til they see where the merger stuff goes), then you'd see the pure use of seniority, tempered by pay rates and the willingness to relocate/commute.

I would think the 500-600 NW pilots who live in Georgia, Florida, or one of those other inbred states D )would pose a bigger threat to DL pilots in ATL...but the inability to bump someone staying-put makes that a sloooooow process.

Fences come from arbitration...which comes from stupidity...which is a byproduct of anger.

A couple of calm pilot groups focused on the Big Picture stand to improve their lot in life well before they could ever get through Section VI negotiations.

As a side, have you thought about a second career as a writer? You've definitely got the talent. Cheers.

Would they let me use a crayon? (I'm a Marine...)

 

[FDJ2]

Fences come from arbitration...which comes from stupidity...which is a byproduct of anger.

A couple of calm pilot groups focused on the Big Picture stand to improve their lot in life well before they could ever get through Section VI negotiations.

Exactly right.

 

[MJ42]

Agree. I think all possible combinations have some weaknesses.

I think Anderson has an appreciation of the NW presence in the midwest. One of his favorites expressions was, "It's cold and it's dark...but it's OURS!" MSP remains the largest market not served by SWA, and the way we defend our two hubs is a case study in "patria defensor". Reno, Sun Country, Frontier, Midwest, and American all tried to go mano-a-mano with NW...and pulled back.


Would they let me use a crayon? (I'm a Marine...) We won't hold that against you! HA HA!

Great post! What do you think about GL's theory about room to grow out of LAX and SFO, sounds logical.

 

[LandGreen]

Good point on the retirements. As far as the West Coast and domestic expansion, I hope you are right but I have a feeling management is thinking domestic contraction instead.

If DL/NW finally hook up...maybe their international expansion out west will necessitate a purchase of AK for West coast feed...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Great post! What do you think about GL's theory about room to grow out of LAX and SFO, sounds logical.

I think it's waaaaaay too far down the road. The windscreen is full of other stuff right now.

 

[120% Torque]

How does this work in practacle terms with regard to NWA pilots wanting to be based in SLC? If a Delta pilot is already based in SLC he will never be bumped out by an NWA pilot but the Delta pilots upgrade in SLC could be slowed as NWA guys filter in?

There's different kinds of debt. Debt that doesn't include a unilateral clause allowing for renegotiation is "bad" debt. Debt that is actually someone else's $$ doing your heavy lifting in exchange for a strategic objective (Rolls Royce is financing NW's B787's), is "good" debt.



1. Richard Anderson. He worked his way up from an entry-level position to CEO...and actually learned how an airline and it's employees operate.

2. Antsy shareholders. The dweebs that overpaid me for my Claim also hold too much DL paper. That commonality is driving some of this.

3. The Skyteam partners. They have been influencing things to their benefit for the "3 stooges" (NW, DL, CO) in the U.S. for specific reason. If you combine #2 above, with the desire of AF/KL to own 25% of the MergeCo (See also: "Delta"), you see a mutually beneficial opportunity.



Yes, but I won't discuss them here. Compass pilots are represented by the Chairman of Council 1, a NW B757 captain. He's on it. I think Mesaba fairs well too. Side note: I'm looking forward to seeing the first Mesaba guys flowing up next month! It will be fun to boss 'em around at NATCO! :beer:



Agree. I think all possible combinations have some weaknesses.

I think Anderson has an appreciation of the NW presence in the midwest. One of his favorites expressions was, "It's cold and it's dark...but it's OURS!" MSP remains the largest market not served by SWA, and the way we defend our two hubs is a case study in "patria defensor". Reno, Sun Country, Frontier, Midwest, and American all tried to go mano-a-mano with NW...and pulled back.



Fences are unnecessary. I'm assuming in a DL/NW merger, all equipment would see an increase in rates. That means DL categories would still pay higher than NW categories. Since no-bump-no-flush is embedded in BOTH systems right now, fences would serve only to prevent the double-breasted horde from storming up to DTW to fly our jets for less money.

Not likely!

If a few categories are moved by the Marketing folks to another base (HNL base for NW on hold 'til they see where the merger stuff goes), then you'd see the pure use of seniority, tempered by pay rates and the willingness to relocate/commute.

I would think the 500-600 NW pilots who live in Georgia, Florida, or one of those other inbred states D )would pose a bigger threat to DL pilots in ATL...but the inability to bump someone staying-put makes that a sloooooow process.

Fences come from arbitration...which comes from stupidity...which is a byproduct of anger.

A couple of calm pilot groups focused on the Big Picture stand to improve their lot in life well before they could ever get through Section VI negotiations.



Would they let me use a crayon? (I'm a Marine...)

 

[Occam's Razor]

If a Delta pilot is already based in SLC he will never be bumped out by an NWA pilot but the Delta pilots upgrade in SLC could be slowed as NWA guys filter in?

Right. If a current DL pilot based in LAX or ATL wants the SLC captain seat and is senior to you, he/she delays your upgrade as well. The assumption is that more than just SLC seats would come open throughout the new, expanded system, and that those would attract pilots too.

 

[General Lee]

I think it's waaaaaay too far down the road. The windscreen is full of other stuff right now.

Just like your HNL base was put on hold, so was our Western expansion, primarily with MD90s from Japan and China. We have excess gates in LA for a reason, and behind our JFK expansion, LA was second. We also have acquired rights to fly all over the Pacific, (as stated before--Singapore, New Zealand, etc) and I think we will eventually exploit those. You're right, it could take time, but we won't have a gap there for too long, especailly if UAL/CAL grow their bases in Cali. I don't see us ditching 777 orders, along with 787 orders, and the 744s would probably be around for awhile too. The INTL growth opportunities exist on the West Coast, and will probably be acted upon.

This is of course if anything actually happens with DL and NWA.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[John Pennekamp]

Fences are unnecessary. I'm assuming in a DL/NW merger, all equipment would see an increase in rates. That means DL categories would still pay higher than NW categories. Since no-bump-no-flush is embedded in BOTH systems right now, fences would serve only to prevent the double-breasted horde from storming up to DTW to fly our jets for less money.

Not likely!

Double breasted Horde... lol

Very likely! General Lee and his little attitude of superiority is very representative of the Delta Pilot Group. We see it every day down here.

I ASSURE you that General Lee and his Double Breasted Brethren are salivating at the chance of "taking" your 747-400s. And before long this thing will get very ugly, because they will begin crying how they are the "acquiring company" and deserve a more favorable deal to get them.

I would think the 500-600 NW pilots who live in Georgia, Florida, or one of those other inbred states D )would pose a bigger threat to DL pilots in ATL...but the inability to bump someone staying-put makes that a sloooooow process.

Inbred states... another lol

Fences come from arbitration...which comes from stupidity...which is a byproduct of anger.

A couple of calm pilot groups focused on the Big Picture stand to improve their lot in life well before they could ever get through Section VI negotiations.

Yes, but unfortunately, there is a lot of stupidity, and there's going to be a lot of anger when some Double Breasted spoiled brats who've always been given whatever they want suddenly get told no.

I expect this deal to get very ugly, very quickly, and will make NW-Hughes-Republic or AAA-AWA look like a love fest.

 

[FDJ2]

I ASSURE you that General Lee and his Double Breasted Brethren are salivating at the chance of "taking" your 747-400s.

John, if there is a merger, the deal will encompass over 800 aircraft, not just 16 747-400s, which represent less than 5% of the total airframes. Granted NWA would bring the largest airframes to the dance, but they also would bring the smallest. I'm confident that the two mature, calm and focused MECs at NWA and DAL can work it out.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John, if there is a merger, the deal will encompass over 800 aircraft, not just 16 747-400s, which represent less than 5% of the total airframes. Granted NWA would bring the largest airframes to the dance, but they also would bring the smallest. I'm confident that the two mature, calm and focused MECs at NWA and DAL can work it out.

I hope so. Because otherwise, it's going to be a blood bath that will drag us all down with you.

 

[captain dad]

John, if there is a merger, the deal will encompass over 800 aircraft, not just 16 747-400s, which represent less than 5% of the total airframes. Granted NWA would bring the largest airframes to the dance, but they also would bring the smallest. I'm confident that the two mature, calm and focused MECs at NWA and DAL can work it out.

I hope that was meant as sarcasm.

Didn't the Republic guys just get off the B scale like a year ago? If two major Legacy carriers, and doesn't matter which ones, literally merge lists, it will ultimately ensure their existnence into the next 50 years, but it will be the ugliest thing to get together since Tom and Roseanne.

I wish you all good luck.

 

[clippyrip]

I'm confident that the two mature, calm and focused MECs at NWA and DAL can work it out.

I hope you are right but it does not sound that way. If you listen to some of the delta folks, they are already talking about being the purchaser and how NWA pilots need to take whatever they are given. That type of attitude is sure to cause a fight.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I hope you are right but it does not sound that way. If you listen to some of the delta folks, they are already talking about being the purchaser and how NWA pilots need to take whatever they are given. That type of attitude is sure to cause a fight.

Which is exactly what I was referring to. The Double Breasted Egos have taken over down here in Atlanta, and mouths are running. The posturing and delusions of grandeur are growing. But what else did we expect from the most arrogant pilot group in the industry?

 

[FDJ2]

I hope so. Because otherwise, it's going to be a blood bath that will drag us all down with you.

I'm fairly confident there wont be a blood bath. It's in no ones best interest, pilots, management, wall street, or any one else associated with either NWA or DAL, to allow that to happen.

 

[FDJ2]

Disregard, double post

 

[FDJ2]

I hope that was meant as sarcasm.

No it wasn't.

Didn't the Republic guys just get off the B scale like a year ago?

Thanks for the good wishes.

This isn't analogous to the Republic merger. Different airlines, different times, different circumstances.

 

[120% Torque]

I'm fairly confident there wont be a blood bath. It's in no ones best interest, pilots, management, wall street, or any one else associated with either NWA or DAL, to allow that to happen.

I wonder if the NWA guys are less likely to act like babies in a new merger. Most who are now on the property had the displeasure as FO's of watching the older NWA/Republic guys slap each other silly for years. Maybe like the child of an abusive father they will do what they can to avoid that for their current family.

 

[NuGuy]

I wonder if the NWA guys are less likely to act like babies in a new merger. Most who are now on the property had the displeasure as FO's of watching the older NWA/Republic guys slap each other silly for years. Maybe like the child of an abusive father they will do what they can to avoid that for their current family.

Heyas Torque,

I'm fairly confident that if there is a group that's going to act like a pack of 4 year old, sputtering fussbudgets, it's not going to be the NWA folks.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

If you listen to some of the delta folks, they are already talking about being the purchaser and how NWA pilots need to take whatever they are given. That type of attitude is sure to cause a fight.

What Delta folks would that be?

I"m a Delta pilot and I can tell you that I don't feel that way.

Who buys who, which carrier's name, management or HQ survives is not, to the best of my knowledge, part of ALPA merger policy.

I wouldn't get too wound up by any of the, my company bought your company, chatter. If there is a merger, seniority issues wont be decided on forums, jumpseats or hotel vans. That type of "chatter" is just background noise.

 

[FDJ2]

Which is exactly what I was referring to. The Double Breasted Egos have taken over down here in Atlanta, and mouths are running.

Which mouths? What did they say? The only mouth running on this seems to be yours.

The posturing and delusions of grandeur are growing.

Your source for that conclusion?

But what else did we expect from the most arrogant pilot group in the industry?

Thanks John. I guess we can all count on your unbiased opinion.

 

[FDJ2]

I wonder if the NWA guys are less likely to act like babies in a new merger.

They're not, they are going to act like the reasoned professionals they are.

 

[DTW320]

Who buys who, which carrier's name, management or HQ survives is not, to the best of my knowledge, part of ALPA merger policy.

I wouldn't get too wound up by any of the, my company bought your company, chatter. If there is a merger, seniority issues wont be decided on forums, jumpseats or hotel vans. That type of "chatter" is just background noise.

Agree 1000%. Great post.

 

[Occam's Razor]

A "clash of cultures" cage fight can only be afforded by those who haven't had their egos miniaturized by the Bankrupt-A-Tron 3000.

Integrate the list even reasonably close to "fair" and give both groups an incentive (spelled: "m-o-n-e-y") to get-along...and the vast majority will figure it out.

They'll look at their calendars and figure out that waiting 6 years for stuff they can get next month is stoo-pid. Especially if all they have to do is promise not to duct-tape their new step brothers inside the Porta-Potty down at the water park.

A small, vocal cadre of knotheads will be angry and disruptive. They'll be that way because they're safety-wired to the Pi$$ed Off position.

There are no perfect mergers. Too many disparate expectations. But there are mergers that represent enough opportunity, security, and incentive that they outweigh the imperfections.

A DL/NW merger could be one. I give it even odds.

 

[John Pennekamp]

A "clash of cultures" cage fight can only be afforded by those who haven't had their egos miniaturized by the Bankrupt-A-Tron 3000.

Integrate the list even reasonably close to "fair" and give both groups an incentive (spelled: "m-o-n-e-y") to get-along...and the vast majority will figure it out.

They'll look at their calendars and figure out that waiting 6 years for stuff they can get next month is stoo-pid. Especially if all they have to do is promise not to duct-tape their new step brothers inside the Porta-Potty down at the water park.

A small, vocal cadre of knotheads will be angry and disruptive. They'll be that way because they're safety-wired to the Pi$$ed Off position.

There are no perfect mergers. Too many disparate expectations. But there are mergers that represent enough opportunity, security, and incentive that they outweigh the imperfections.

A DL/NW merger could be one. I give it even odds.

Mark, you crack me up. Good stuff! :laugh: :beer:

 

[NuGuy]

A "clash of cultures" ....

Good grief, we got one side that sits over a hole on the ice to fish, and we got another side that digs a good tractor pull....

Ready made for Springer, I tell ya!

Nu

 

[Fly4hire]

If there is a merger, seniority issues wont be decided on forums, jumpseats or hotel vans. That type of "chatter" is just background noise.

Most astute comment I've heard here in a while.

 

[Fly4hire]

Occam: They'll look at their calendars and figure out that waiting 6 years for stuff they can get next month is stoo-pid. Especially if all they have to do is promise not to duct-tape their new step brothers inside the Porta-Potty down at the water park.

No, just collectively toss a few thousand sacrificial pilots under the "synergy" bus and they'll have a better career to come back to while the majority get to pocket the change....

Occam: A small, vocal cadre of knotheads will be angry and disruptive.

Probably because they'll be getting furloughed a 2nd or 3rd time. OK, for the new hires it will be just the first.

Occam: They'll be that way because they're safety-wired to the Pi$$ed Off position.

See above.


I'm sure there will be all sorts of promises of job and furlough protections and assurances of this and that, and then after the ink is dry the business environment will change and the other guy will be the bad cop. Force Majeure deja'vu.

Companies merge to consolidate operations, reduce redundancies, and cut costs. Period. RA is even saying they will cut domestic capacity by 4-5%.

I'd like to see the fuzzy math that says you can cut capacity, pay more and preserve jobs and enhance careers. Probably the same one that says we won't park DC9's in lieu of E175's because we need the lift...

Any talk of economies of scale that will result in the ability to pay the net sum of 2 pilot groups more money than before the merger is pure bovine scatology.

I'll wager on a 1000 furloughs minimum.

But hey, if it wasn't me and I'd get a fat pay raise and other goodies in the bargain I'd be gung-ho too.

 

[FDJ2]

Good grief, we got one side that sits over a hole on the ice to fish, and we got another side that digs a good tractor pull....

Ready made for Springer, I tell ya!

Nu

I grew up in Detroit, and I live in Atlanta. I get along great with the folks down here. Clash of cultures is over rated.