ASA, DAL almost collide in ATL

[79%N1]

No....We do not!
(Great job ALPA!)

 

[Oakum_Boy]

No....We do not!
(Great job ALPA!)

I think your frustration is misdirected. Do you know, or did you follow the history of the ASAP negotiations? I think you'll find ALPA did the right thing on this one. Do we need the ASAP progam? Yes. Can we get one soon? I don't know.

 

[atl pilot]

Uga,
I cannot agree with you more. I have already fired off an angry email to my union press guys and local president. I am very angry about how this was handled. Five-minutes of free publicity is no good when its done on someone else's (the ASA pilot group) misfortune, or disdains their intregity.

 

[Varmint]

I want to know how the press found out about this so quickly in the first place. Did they get a call from someone on the RJ when they saw a 757 hurtling at them, did someone from ATC call the media....like DAN RONAN...ATC union spokesman...funny he has the same name as an ex Fox 5 reporter...hmmmm.

 

[regionalcap]

I am not sure what all was said on the tower frequency, but I am sure people use scanners and listen to it. Word gets out quick.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yeah, I'll bet you a thousand bucks that ALPA would never approach the media nor comment on something like this. Could you just see one of our MEC pinning blame on an ATC'er before any kind of official report was out? I'm not so sure I like Atlanta ATC anymore. Maybe I'll just cover my ass and not help you out when you ask me to "hurry up" or "keep it snug". This team player ******************** is not working.

 

[atl pilot]

Oakum,
Please do not think we are all that way. Some of us do have integrity and still believe in the team concept - crews and controllers, and about providing great service. Unfortunately, our leadership and culture (within the FAA) has changed too - and we're all just walking a very fine line where the rules change daily depending on who you are (if you get my drift).
Some of us still really do care about doing it right for you guys 100% of the time!!

 

[CRJCptn]

I agree with atl, let not blame every ATL Tower/Tracon controller for the poor choice of words by one spokesman.

Hopefully we can all learn something from this incident when all is said and done. Then move on. Be safe everyone.

 

[CFI2766]

I like the whole, "Watch yourself! Don't get lazy... so you don't kill yourself and others" philosophy.

Or just blame others. That's usually easier.

-Brett

Are you sure you are not in management?

(It wasn't anyone we know, was it? pm me...)

 

[Jmoney]

ATC Union...

I want to know how the press found out about this so quickly in the first place. Did they get a call from someone on the RJ when they saw a 757 hurtling at them, did someone from ATC call the media....like DAN RONAN...ATC union spokesman...funny he has the same name as an ex Fox 5 reporter...hmmmm.

Every time something like this happens, the ATC union guys jump right on it. They are always bellyaching about the level of retirements leaving them short-staffed. The FAA is also not hiring
anywhere near the number of people they will need to replace these folks.

-As always, some metal will have to get bent before anything gets fixed by the FAA.

-I do feel for the controllers, and I am not sure this was a factor in this particular case, but do they really have to go running right off to the media?

 

[Erlanger]

No....We do not!
(Great job ALPA!)

What I find interesting is that the mechanics and dispatchers at ASA are covered under the ASAP program but not the pilots or flight attendants.

 

[John Pennekamp]

No....We do not!
(Great job ALPA!)

You should get educated on this issue before randomly assigning blame to the union.

The problem is on BOTH ends. An ASAP program will do no good if the company throws the pilot under the bus by creatively defining and interpreting what "sole source" report means. Again, if that doesn't make sense to you, then kindly shut your pie hole until you know what the hell you're talking about.

The union should NOT engage in ASAP discussions until the company has DEMONSTRATED an acceptable level of trust to make it realistic.

 

[John Pennekamp]

What I find interesting is that the mechanics and dispatchers at ASA are covered under the ASAP program but not the pilots or flight attendants.

The mechanics are not union. The dispatchers had less trust issues with management when they signed their letter. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Uga,
I cannot agree with you more. I have already fired off an angry email to my union press guys and local president. I am very angry about how this was handled. Five-minutes of free publicity is no good when its done on someone else's (the ASA pilot group) misfortune, or disdains their intregity.

VERY well said! Good to know we still have a friend in the tower.

 

[acaTerry]

Assuming it was the crews fault. That, in itself is an assumption at this point.

There could be much more to the story.


Medeco

There is not more to the story. They were instructed to hold short. They didn't. Pilot error cut and dry.
That being said, how many of you saw the AP (ASSociated Press) version? I quote "...crew ignored instructions not to taxi..."
I LOVE IT!!! Ignored. By definition, to ingnore means to hear, understand, and not comply. I seriously doubt that this crew heard, understood, and failed to comply. My money is that they got mixed up and inadvertantly boned it. ATL is a zoo.

 

[MJG]

Couple thoughts:

First that ASA does not have the ASAP program is unfortunate.

Second is that just because your airline has an ASAP program, doesn't necessarily mean a pilot will not face diciplinary action from the FAA. The ASAP program nearly guarentees that it won't get to that but in some cases, the Feds will still nail pilots to the cross, ASAP program or not.

Third thought is what we "hear" as pilots vs. what was actually said to us can be quite different. Workload, stress, etc. all play a huge part in this.

But the number one thing is to make sure both pilots, look both ways before crossing an active runway's hold short line. I'm as guilty as anyone else for not doing it 100% of the time, but we have to make this a habbit, especially at busy places with poor setups like EWR, LAX, ATL, ORD...........

 

[FishandFly]

I'm not suggesting that this had anything to do with this incident, but what do you all think about sterile cockpit?

It seems like a lot of guys I fly with think it is a ridiculous FAR, and one they choose not to follow.

 

[CRJCptn]

There is not more to the story. They were instructed to hold short. They didn't. Pilot error cut and dry.

so you were there and heard it all take place?

Or are you just trusting the AJC???

 

[Varmint]

so you were there and heard it all take place?

Or are you just trusting the AJC???

ASA is a briefing nightmare during taxi. I vote to change the idiotic briefing to "standard" for an airport and the aircraft unless there is something considerably abnormal or out of place. Not to mention that stupid briefing card can be read by both pilots individually at the gate before departure. Most that I fly with the first time attempt to brief ASAP off the ramp...that is until I make it known that I am framiliar with the details and don't need to be briefed again that month unless there is a significant deviation from normal procedures on that aircraft or airport. Works great and you actually hear the radio and don't miss calls. That may not have been a factor but I make sure it is not a factor when I am out there. Sterile cockpit is sterile cockpit...it means shut up and listen...not chatter about crap the company deems appropriate and pertinant to the flight.

 

[Max Q]

Convince every captain out there to stop asking for takeoff briefings and your FO's will stop reading them.

-Brett

 

[Noise]

Convince every captain out there to stop asking for takeoff briefings and your FO's will stop reading them.

-Brett

Some of us only read them when asked...I love it when I get briefed on all the items that i just wrote down 10 minutes before, I wrote it, pretty sure I am familiar with it.

 

[Max Q]

Some of us only read them when asked...I love it when I get briefed on all the items that i just wrote down 10 minutes before, I wrote it, pretty sure I am familiar with it.

I'm referring to the takeoff briefing during taxi.

-Brett

 

[crjskipper]

i think reviewing the takeoff items close to takeoff is a good thing. takes about 10 seconds and should be done when it doesnt distract from anything else. it is often 30 minutes or more since we briefed at the gate and it is always good to remember non-standard items close to takeoff that could be forgoten. blaming or attributing this to the brief is lazy and stupid. if they were briefing as they crossed, when they would have plenty of time while taxiing to 28, they are negligent.

 

[John Pennekamp]

There is not more to the story. They were instructed to hold short. They didn't. Pilot error cut and dry.
That being said, how many of you saw the AP (ASSociated Press) version? I quote "...crew ignored instructions not to taxi..."
I LOVE IT!!! Ignored. By definition, to ingnore means to hear, understand, and not comply. I seriously doubt that this crew heard, understood, and failed to comply. My money is that they got mixed up and inadvertantly boned it. ATL is a zoo.

Agreed. The term "ignored" applies intent, of which I doubt there was. A decent case for slander could be made.

This was an accident, and should be treated accordingly by placing better safety devices and backup procedures in place, not punishing the crew and dragging them through the mud.

 

[John Pennekamp]

But the number one thing is to make sure both pilots, look both ways before crossing an active runway's hold short line. I'm as guilty as anyone else for not doing it 100% of the time, but we have to make this a habbit, especially at busy places with poor setups like EWR, LAX, ATL, ORD...........

Here's something nobody has brought up. The way it used to be, when an aircraft was position and hold, the lights were left off as a signal to crossing aircraft that the one in position was not rolling.

Then several years ago, ALPA issued a memo to turn all lights on when pos and hold to increase visibility.

Now, we really can't tell if that pos and hold aircraft is rolling or not. Maybe the incident crew saw it, but just assumed it was pos and hold?

The way it used to be, lights on meant no cross. This may not have happened.

 

[Jmoney]

Absolutely......

Here's something nobody has brought up. The way it used to be, when an aircraft was position and hold, the lights were left off as a signal to crossing aircraft that the one in position was not rolling.

Then several years ago, ALPA issued a memo to turn all lights on when pos and hold to increase visibility.

Now, we really can't tell if that pos and hold aircraft is rolling or not. Maybe the incident crew saw it, but just assumed it was pos and hold?

The way it used to be, lights on meant no cross. This may not have happened.

I absolutely 100% agree with that. I never turn all my lights on in position, and I think it is a stupid idea to do so.
-Great Point!

 

[Capn Lucky]

This situation is far from from cut and dried. Where was the RJ when is was told to hold short? Did the correct airplane respond? Was the instruction clear? I'd say that one must hear the tape before any conclusions can be drawn.

 

[Medeco]

thats an interesting point, because at D taxiway that is the point at which you should change freq. in ATL.

It could have been read back by someone else, easily.

The cockpit cvr would have told the truth, but since they went on to complete the flight, im not sure they have that info. I do know our CVR's record for much longer than 30 min.

If all they have is the tower tapes then ...


Medeco

 

[SLUF4]

Didn't the turning on of lights while in position come from the crash at LAX where a USAir landed on top of a skywest in position? No matter what action the FAA or company takes there will always be an unforeseen danger lurking around the corner.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Didn't the turning on of lights while in position come from the crash at LAX where a USAir landed on top of a skywest in position? No matter what action the FAA or company takes there will always be an unforeseen danger lurking around the corner.

Not sure, but turning on the taxi and/or landing lights while in position aren't going to do much to stop a plane approaching you from behind.