Frontier predicts wider loss than forecast.

[737 Pylt]

...................

 

[inline]

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

Spare me. Military pilots get shoved to the top of the resume heap at the major and national airlines. At FedEx if you're not an ex/current military pilot you better walk on water to get hired. The airlines don't owe you a living. Get over it.

 

[jke406]

Spare me. Military pilots get shoved to the top of the resume heap at the major and national airlines. At FedEx if you're not an ex/current military pilot you better walk on water to get hired. The airlines don't owe you a living. Get over it.

my, someone's a little bitter.

 

[jonjuan]

Spare me. Military pilots get shoved to the top of the resume heap at the major and national airlines. At FedEx if you're not an ex/current military pilot you better walk on water to get hired. The airlines don't owe you a living. Get over it.

Missed the sarcasm in my post, did we?

 

[waveflyer]

Are we still arguing about ridiculous ideas like national seniority lists? I don't care whether you think it's the best idea since the pill, it's just never going to happen. Start worrying about real solutions rather than jerking off to thoughts of unreasonable ideas.

Why is it so god damned unreasonable? Every damn idea i get gets shot down by guys at alpa that have obvious agendas-- how long do you think we are going to support this when it's just not f***ing working?

The only question: IS MANAGEMENT USING OUR SENIORITY SYSTEM AGAINST US?

some more: even the pilots who it has worked out for- how many of them are flying out of the domicile they want to? how many are screwing up their lives and marriages w/ bad commutes b/c they can't apply to the company flying out of their city?

Stop acting like youre an authority... Here's the rule- if you've been a part of alpa in the last decade-- You f###ed up- and have no credibility left- so don't jump on me.
\
I don't care if it's a national seniority list- more pay parity within all the lists or just let each pilot negotiate their own wage and positions-- what we have is the king of stupid ideas. WE NEED TO ALLOW PILOTS TO CHANGE COMPANIES W/O STARTING OVER AT ROCK BOTTOM KID OUT OF COLLEGE WAGES OR THE SLIDE WILL CONTINUE.

IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT LAST STATEMENT THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH?

dont' let the sarcasm hit you in the head- because i'm laying it on pretty thick- WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A NATIONAL LIST W/ PILOTS BUT IT SEEMS TO WORK WITH ALMOST EVERY OTHER UNIONIZED PROFESSION IN THE COUNTRY?

 

[PCL_128]

Why is it so god damned unreasonable? Every damn idea i get gets shot down by guys at alpa that have obvious agendas--

Agenda? I have no agenda. I haven't been part of the ALPA leadership in a while now. I hold no ALPA positions whatsoever. I'm not even at an ALPA carrier. So, no, no agenda from me.

IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT LAST STATEMENT THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH?

You might as well ask "do you have something against world peace?" Of course I have no problem with the concept that you're proposing, but it's simply not realistic. The amount of negotiating leverage that would be required to achieve such a thing would require us to gut every contract in the industry. Not to mention that many airlines aren't even unionized, let alone ALPA. Then there's the problem of having tons of pilots that are opposed to the idea anyway because they don't want to risk getting bumped down the list at their company if someone else's company goes tango uniform. The problems are enormous, and there's simply too many to list. You would be more wisely spending your time by focusing on reasonable and realistic solutions.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

waveflyer...

If National Sen list is a great idea.. then why is it not so?

In addition, if it is a great idea, then make a proposal. Give us a rough outline of how you will implement, grandfather and protect those who would have otherwise not lost a seat when the music stops..

 

[400ADude]

p

ipe- many professionals take many risks- but how many of them start over at $30k and have their experience count for nothing when they do?

A new hire teacher in wisconsin-out of college! starts at $40k! That risk and culture and quick upgrade to go to F9 would still be there w/ a national list.

Sir wavelfyer,

A new hire is paid by the STATE. Right now, everything is private. If the industry were to say, become controlled by the federal gov then yes... a national line would make sense. Not now.

But.......if liquid oil was to become a endangered resource, relying on government action to control its use then yes a line might happen.

Could regulation happen??? Sure No doubt it.

 

[StaySeated]

This thread has a little bit of everything that is wrong with this profession. Pettiness, greed, total lack of accountability, immaturity, the list goes on and on.

What is the purpose of this "info" board? A bunch of guys attacking other guys, and everyone's problems is someone else's fault. Jesus f'n christ.

Thankfully, very few fellow frontier pilots have participated in this pathetic thread regarding our airline. SWA didn't kill us, inept management decisions began the process and intense competition only accelerated the bleeding. F9 could have been the only show and town and they would have found a way to d1ck it up. Open LA, close LA, start service to stl, don't tell anyone, stop stl. Think about it some more, start stl again. stop bwi, start yvr, stop yvr. start gdl, stop gdl. start la again, don't tell anyone, stop la. start mem, really start mem. stop mem. Circle the wagons at DIA...again. Should I continue.

Hub and spoke doesn't work. AA, dehubbed 3 years ago. UAL, same thing. DAL, stopped banking for a while in CVG. SWA, farthest thing from a hub. Citrus, followed swa and grew and profited. Hub and spoke is a horrible business model. Add in the fact that is snows, a lot, in our hub, and the airport authority makes snow removal look like a new event in the special olympics and circling the wagons in DIA is suicidal.

Will F9 survive? If I was in vegas my money would be on "no". Sad, but true.

Do I want a national seniority list now that I made my bed here at DIA. Nope. Do I piss and moan about the professionals at SWA. NO. Did skybus, or virgin or anyone else fack me. NO. I am here because I love the people and I have never had a better QOL. Period. The seniority list is filled with some of the most interesting, skilled, and personable people in the industry. Unfortunately, our HQ isn't quite at stacked.

 

[Daddy]

Nice post

 

[maxblast72]

Hub and spoke doesn't work. AA, dehubbed 3 years ago. UAL, same thing. DAL, stopped banking for a while in CVG. SWA, farthest thing from a hub. Citrus, followed swa and grew and profited. Hub and spoke is a horrible business model. Add in the fact that is snows, a lot, in our hub, and the airport authority makes snow removal look like a new event in the special olympics and circling the wagons in DIA is suicidal.

Actually, hub and spoke at Airtran is very profitable from everything our CEO has ever said. We would add more cities and grow our hub in Atlanta if we could get more gates. Every spoke we add from Atlanta is profitable almost from day one because we have over 50 cities feeding into Atlanta which allows for many route combinations to offer.

That being said, the company has diversified by adding alot of point to point flying. Most of the point to point flying is Midwest/Northeast to Florida bypassing the busy Atlanta hub. However, we proved most of these point routes would work before we started them because we were hauling the people through Atlanta anyway before the non-stop service started.

Airtran's growth has been slow (avg 10 airplanes per year), consistent (last 10 years), and profitable (last 8 years). The growth has depended on a profitable core (the Atlanta hub) which allows us to build new routes (which take time and money to develope).

I do agree with you though that Frontiers management has not utilized their core strengths in a post 9/11 environment as well as some other low cost carriers.

 

[The Victors]

Actually, hub and spoke at Airtran is very profitable from everything our CEO has ever said. We would add more cities and grow our hub in Atlanta if we could get more gates. Every spoke we add from Atlanta is profitable almost from day one because we have over 50 cities feeding into Atlanta which allows for many route combinations to offer.

That being said, the company has diversified by adding alot of point to point flying. Most of the point to point flying is Midwest/Northeast to Florida bypassing the busy Atlanta hub. However, we proved most of these point routes would work before we started them because we were hauling the people through Atlanta anyway before the non-stop service started.

Airtran's growth has been slow (avg 10 airplanes per year), consistent (last 10 years), and profitable (last 8 years). The growth has depended on a profitable core (the Atlanta hub) which allows us to build new routes (which take time and money to develope).

I do agree with you though that Frontiers management has not utilized their core strengths in a post 9/11 environment as well as some other low cost carriers.

You forgot to mention the pilots subsidizing this growth with below industry standard wages and no pay raises for, what?, like 5 years?

 

[The Victors]

but back to the thread......what do F9 guys/gals think about a swa and F9 merger? Just curious.

 

[FBN0223]

but back to the thread......what do F9 guys/gals think about a swa and F9 merger? Just curious.

Can't see that one happening. It would financially more cost effective and logistically easier for Southwest to expedite Frontier out of business and then acquire the pieces of the F9 operation that they want. No mess, no worries, no employee integration and no Airbus aircraft.

 

[eprops]

Why should a 20 year military pilot have to start at the bottom of the list, behind some 28 year old kid 1 year into their major? Insane, indeed.

That 28 year old kid could and likely does have more flight time than you.