Frontier predicts wider loss than forecast.

[Larcifer]

SWA is just doing to F9 as F9 did to UAL. Sucks but that is the way free market works. How many out there go to Wal-Mart, Costco, Homedepot etc, instead of the local Mom and Pop store? SWA has what the flying domestic public want...lots of options and cheap fares. There is currently to much domestic capacity and the weak won't survive.

 

[pipe]

It only sucks b/c we have an insane seniority system that makes all of their pilots start completely over if they liquidate....

They're on par w/ every kid 3 years into their regional- it's just dumb- and it takes leverage away from ALL of us

There are many, many captains at f9 that were two years or less to the left seat. It would probably be small consolation to them to take their 2-5 years of seniority to the right seat of some major.

They took a chance on F9, were handsomely rewarded with upgrades and pay that rose incredibly fast , and now the risk part of the equation is coming home to roost.

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".

PIPE

 

[USMC319]

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".
PIPE

I agree with most of that Pipe, however, this isn't the first rodeo for most of us. Several of us have given up on seniority numbers with our previous "major airlines" and have come to Frontier via the hard road. Not too many guys that I know of just bounced into a commuter and then here for a quick upgrade in years. In fact the 18 month upgrade has been a thing of the past for years as well. Remember that Frontier has done most of its growth between 9-11 and now, a time when few airlines were hiring, so they got a lot of very experienced folks.

 

[pipe]

I agree with most of that Pipe, however, this isn't the first rodeo for most of us. Several of us have given up on seniority numbers with our previous "major airlines" and have come to Frontier via the hard road. Not too many guys that I know of just bounced into a commuter and then here for a quick upgrade in years. In fact the 18 month upgrade has been a thing of the past for years as well. Remember that Frontier has done most of its growth between 9-11 and now, a time when few airlines were hiring, so they got a lot of very experienced folks.

You are absolutely correct. That was the reality a few years ago when I was there (after giving up on my own major airline seniority number).

I guess my point is that everyone at every airline has had to do their own risk/reward computation. Many at f9 took big risks and were handsomely rewarded. I fear that the risk is rearing it's head now.

When I was at f9 I was appalled at Potter's desire to expand while refusing to branch out of DEN. It was so obviously a case of all the eggs in one basket. SWA would not have the leverage it does over f9 if Potter would have concentrated a little more on diversification.

PIPE

 

[stillflyn]

How did this get so far off track. When you loose your job you start at the bottom.... that's life at the airlines.

 

[Sedona16]

SWA is just doing to F9 as F9 did to UAL. Sucks but that is the way free market works. How many out there go to Wal-Mart, Costco, Homedepot etc, instead of the local Mom and Pop store? SWA has what the flying domestic public want...lots of options and cheap fares. There is currently to much domestic capacity and the weak won't survive.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Sedona16]

There are many, many captains at f9 that were two years or less to the left seat. It would probably be small consolation to them to take their 2-5 years of seniority to the right seat of some major.

They took a chance on F9, were handsomely rewarded with upgrades and pay that rose incredibly fast , and now the risk part of the equation is coming home to roost.

I worked there, I loved it, the people are great. Fact is though, 12-18 month Captain is usually too good to be true. In this case it may turn out that it is. It's kinda the dot-com bubble of seat progression.

Good luck to everybody there. I think it's literally the best coach-class product in the industry, and it's a great place to work. Unfortunately, I think another major market has just been "Wal-Marted".

PIPE

And a very similar story at JB, Skybus, VA, Airtran, etc None of these so far have been good for the business. SWA in recent years have held their own in pay but everything else about that operation undercutting everybody else has not been good.

 

[airline#5]

"what they have done to many legacies"

Dude, they don't discriminate in the destruction of other airlines, ask ATA, Vanguard, and soon AirTran, not to mention other LCC's who's pilots are driving trucks. I've been on the receiving end several times, but unlike the major airline whiners I don't blame SWA for being a better player in a game where most players lose. However, I will never pay for training. So I got that going for me...and a bunch of debt!!?!

 

[400ADude]

And a very similar story at JB, Skybus, VA, Airtran, etc None of these so far have been good for the business. SWA in recent years have held their own in pay but everything else about that operation undercutting everybody else has not been good.

Undercutting is another term for getting beat. Your management blew it, hard.

 

[737 Pylt]

Undercutting is another term for getting beat. Your management blew it, hard.

Uh......He said......Blew it......Hard.......:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[waveflyer]

pipe- many professionals take many risks- but how many of them start over at $30k and have their experience count for nothing when they do?

A new hire teacher in wisconsin-out of college! starts at $40k! That risk and culture and quick upgrade to go to F9 would still be there w/ a national list. I know many over there that could've been at any handful of majors by now- but enjoyed it there. All i'm saying and will continue to say is that when we have to start over at poverty wages- it takes a huge amount of leverage from us in negotiations. I know what is, i know what's fair and what's not- and don't really care about that- I just think it's stupid business wise for us to have our career set up that way. There has to be a better way.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Wave...the government took away our leverage! Every time someone from a large carrier tries to strike, they will be told that it is an illegal strike. Politics...we are bus drivers...

 

[waveflyer]

Wave...the government took away our leverage! Every time someone from a large carrier tries to strike, they will be told that it is an illegal strike. Politics...we are bus drivers...

very true- which is why we don't need to set up our careers in such an inflexible way and take away even more leverage- Think about it- if a company is screwing around too much- now- we have to take it-we can't leave if we wanted to- if we could change company's w/o having to start over- more could choose to leave- thus punishing a bad company w/o having to strike- let the market work for us- seniority is our creation- supposed to make things fair and secure- How many pilots actually feel that way?

And then you said the bus driver comment- It's bad enough when rampers and pax say it- but when pilots say it- it bugs the s!!t out of me- the difference- a kid w/a ged can learn how to be a bus driver in a few days-= see if they can be a pilot at all= you all forget how many real capable people would crap their pants at the stuff we find routine-

 

[njcapt]

Dude, they don't discriminate in the destruction of other airlines, ask ATA, Vanguard, and soon AirTran, not to mention other LCC's who's pilots are driving trucks.

Jesus H. Christ, I worked for every one of them. I got out of the airline industry, in part, to avoid the massive whipsaw between various carriers and the lowering of standards for pay and QOL at the current red-headed-stepchildren among them.

F9 is just the latest one that is suffering from the inability to effectively adapt to changing market conditions.

 

[PCL_128]

Are we still arguing about ridiculous ideas like national seniority lists? I don't care whether you think it's the best idea since the pill, it's just never going to happen. Start worrying about real solutions rather than jerking off to thoughts of unreasonable ideas.